Martial Arts Anyone?

[jason conley]

I got a buddy that loves hurting people he swears by brazilian jujitsu.

 

[Gaudard]

Can someone please tell me why most fights go to the ground? I never understood that. furthermore can you tell me why that is stated as fact tand preached like gosphel?

Instinct?

I say that because it has been said to me, but also when I think back to high school... most fights I seen went to the ground where someone started getting pounded.

Like in Shays video, if someone comes at you with a stick (untrained) most likely they're going to swing the same way every time. Without any training, the ground is a good place (instinct?) to go because you can control the person and beat the snot out of them.

You do have to use some common sense, because I'd guess the ground isn't usually a good place to go. In the street you have the pavement, rocks, and a lot of other things to get hurt on. Anywhere where you could get into a fight, you might find yourself against multiple attackers so if it does go to the ground you want to end it fast and get back up.

 

[kettlebell03]

Let me preface this reply by saying that I am by no means a martial arts expert. However, I have trained in various "arts" and "systems" throughout my life that give me somewhat of a frame of reference for this topic.

Many people study brazilian jiu jitsu, and I can say with all honesty that when it comes to ground fighting BJJ has no equal. However, there are a lot of myths and false statistics out there about how many fights truly go to the ground. There was an excellent article in Black Belt a few months ago discussing street ground fighting. Certain questions were brought up in the article. Did both parties go to the ground, or did just one person go to the ground? Was that somebody completely on the ground, or did they just end up on one knee? What are conditions on the ground truly like on the street? These are the types of issues that come up when discussing street fighting. It is much safer to say that most fights end up in some type of grappling situation involving clothing grabs, clinch fighting, one person defending on the ground, ect. and so forth. All combative self defense experts seem to agree, though, that the ground is the LAST place you want to be in a fight for your life. So be familiar with ground fighting, but don't base any street survial strategies on it.

Unfortunately, there are very few instructors out there teaching systems that truly prepare you for what you would need on the street in one package. It's going to be up to most people to piece these skills together over time. I would focus on what Gabe Suarez calls the concept of the complete arsenal. This is developing skills in a variety of areas that will develop the practitioner into a complete fighter. Combative skills, ground survival, stick, knife, firearm, defensive driving, conditioning, and educating yourself on street violence and criminal tactics so you can practice awareness and avoidance strategies to keep you out of trouble in the first place. And that is by no means a comprehensive list. There may be many other skill sets needed depending on the person.

One may have to work with various instructors and across various systems over a long period of time in order to truly develop a complete arsenal.

 

[Glock Lover]

BJJ is good. Done that. Wrestling is great. Done it. Good old karate actually worked best for me and my job though. I don't want to be on my back ever in my job. Your like a turtle on its back if you fall. So I have to adapt all of them to fit what I do everyday.

 

[Woodsman]

I trained in aikijutsu and would choose that over aikido, but there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread.

If I can ask, where did you get that training? I would also agree with your recommendation.

The problem with the modern martial arts is that they have been watered down form their original combat roots. In the "do" styles this is for sport mostly. The "jutsu" styles are more closely aligned with their original roots.

Brazilian style is in my opinion about as close as you get to the truest sense of jiu jutsu (not judo).

Same applies for aikido and aikijutsu. Both similar, but the jutsu variation can be really interesting to learn.

No matter what you learn to do, learn how to stretch properly!

 

[Scutter01]

The problem with the modern martial arts is that they have been watered down form their original combat roots. In the "do" styles this is for sport mostly. The "jutsu" styles are more closely aligned with their original roots.

As far as I can tell, the Okinawan styles are still taught in the traditional manner and haven't changed much. The problem is that pretty much all karate-do is an after-school activity now instead of a true self-defense and fighting art. This causes the teaching to be somewhat watered down. However, as I said above, if you can find a good instructor and communicate what you want out of the course, you'll get much better instruction. It also helps if you can trace your instructor's lineage so you don't get some guy that opened a school a week after earning his shodan.

 

[Woodsman]

My nephew took tae-kwon-do (not sure on spelling and don't care) for many years and got his black belt at about 12! Have to call BS on that.

I also had an instructor who spent years leaning an old form of karate, not the water downed, play with the kiddies stuff. This person was absolutely scary. No sparring with him. He did not play nice.

If someone gets a black belt in under 10 years they did not spend enough training...

 

[42769vette]

callme crazy but i hate the whole belt system. i was in kung fu for about a year and left because of belts. my instructior wanted me to hurry and test for a higher belt and thats not why i was there. i think people get to focused on belts and forget why they are there. ive taken several forms and most that ive taken everyone wants a black belt. thats why i switched to a mma school there are no belts. i dont know what im the equivlant to in belts in diffrent forms and frankly couldn't care less.

in my kung fu school our sparring was extreamly wattered down. you could only punch/ kick from the lower abs to the center of the chest. everyone there just thought they were the toughest man alive. at the time i was a white belt and talked our 3rd degree brown into a real sparing match in the cage at my mma school. he aggree and was all cocky. i hit him in the mouth and he actually backed up and said "im real sparring you cant hit to the head". i infomred him this wasn't kung fu and there is only one way to train for getting punched in the face and that was to take some punches and learn there is no "time out he fouled me". needless to say he was pissed that he had gotten whipped by a white belt and submitted countless times, but i will give him credit because the next time in kung fu that the whole "kung fu rules all martial arts" argument cane up (it was usually me against the whole class) he did stand up and say there is alot more to fighting than kung fu teaches.

 

[Scutter01]

callme crazy but i hate the whole belt system. i was in kung fu for about a year and left because of belts. my instructior wanted me to hurry and test for a higher belt and thats not why i was there. i think people get to focused on belts and forget why they are there. ive taken several forms and most that ive taken everyone wants a black belt. thats why i switched to a mma school there are no belts. i dont know what im the equivlant to in belts in diffrent forms and frankly couldn't care less.

I've heard that story from a lot of "belt factory" schools (not saying yours was one). The idea is that you pay the school a set fee (say $3000) and they guarantee your black belt in three years. The longer you take, the more money they lose. It's in their best interest to get you done quickly and into a new Dan program for another fee. WTF is that? I could care less about the belt. I can buy any color belt for any martial arts style for $10 online right now. I'd rather pay a monthly tuition fee and go for as long as I'm learning something and then stop when I'm not learning anymore. If that's 3 months, fine. If that's 30 years, even better.

Unfortunately, because karate is an after-school activity now, the kids need some form of progress recognition or they get bored and lose interest. They don't care about the knowledge, they just want to get to the next belt color. The whole kyu ranking system is designed to keep younger students interested.

 

[CombatVet]

callme crazy but i hate the whole belt system. i was in kung fu for about a year and left because of belts. my instructior wanted me to hurry and test for a higher belt and thats not why i was there. i think people get to focused on belts and forget why they are there. ive taken several forms and most that ive taken everyone wants a black belt. thats why i switched to a mma school there are no belts. i dont know what im the equivlant to in belts in diffrent forms and frankly couldn't care less.

in my kung fu school our sparring was extreamly wattered down. you could only punch/ kick from the lower abs to the center of the chest. everyone there just thought they were the toughest man alive. at the time i was a white belt and talked our 3rd degree brown into a real sparing match in the cage at my mma school. he aggree and was all cocky. i hit him in the mouth and he actually backed up and said "im real sparring you cant hit to the head". i infomred him this wasn't kung fu and there is only one way to train for getting punched in the face and that was to take some punches and learn there is no "time out he fouled me". needless to say he was pissed that he had gotten whipped by a white belt and submitted countless times, but i will give him credit because the next time in kung fu that the whole "kung fu rules all martial arts" argument cane up (it was usually me against the whole class) he did stand up and say there is alot more to fighting than kung fu teaches.

Yeah, I'd find a different school man. Guardian Kung Fu uses "belts" only because most Americans are tangible goals oriented. Just because person "X" learned "Y" doesn't mean that you're learning that at the same time too. It's when you're ready.

 

[Gaudard]

You just need to find out how they award belts. If you get one every three months for showing up to class and paying your fee, then wouldn't put much weight in them. If you get one because the instructor thinks you earned it or you have some type of sparing test, it may mean a little more.

The belts and various martial arts was how the UFC started. If you've never watched the first 4 UFCs, I highly recommend it. It has evolved over time to what it is now, but in the early days it was Tae-Kun-Do vs Judo ect...

 

[Adrenaline]

Seeing as this is the martial arts thread. I too have been thinking about taking up a mixed martial arts class...but my knees are my weakpoint, is there anyway I can get away with training and not sparing? I took some Tae Kwon Do and some Karate, but I remember all of those involved sparing, and I really REALLY hate dislocating my knees...should I just stick to guns?

 

[Scutter01]

Seeing as this is the martial arts thread. I too have been thinking about taking up a mixed martial arts class...but my knees are my weakpoint, is there anyway I can get away with training and not sparing? I took some Tae Kwon Do and some Karate, but I remember all of those involved sparing, and I really REALLY hate dislocating my knees...should I just stick to guns?

It obviously depends on the school, but I would not care to study at a dojo where the instructor is unable to adjust his training curriculum to suit my particular needs, especially if it's to accommodate an injury. As previously stated, it's important to discuss what you hope to accomplish with the instructor and you'll get better training.

 

[INMIline]

I say Jiu-Jitsu and boxing. A little muay tai. MMA schools are best for the reasons posted. Real sparring and you can use what works for you and throw out the rest.

But, Machida is bringing Karate back!!!!

I like Bruce Lee's philolsophy on self defense. He was the first Mixed Martial Artist and was way ahead of his time. Tao of Jeet Kune Do is a must read.

 

[42769vette]

I've heard that story from a lot of "belt factory" schools (not saying yours was one).

my kung fu school absolutly was a belt factory. they didn't go as far as to garentee x belt in x years, but the instructor recomended you to the grand master for a belt test and he would recomend folks after 4 weeks for a yellow belt. you have to learn 10 katas (max of 3 moves) and 10 sparring techniques (max of 3) for the yellow belt. and that is exactly why i quit going. at the time i was mainly interested in mma but my stand up if pathetic. so i decided to take mma mon-wed-thur-sat-sun and kung fu on tuesday to try and focus more on my standup. when it was all said and done my mma school started offering mau tie (spelling?) and kempo so i left kung fu and never looked back. my stand up still is pathetic. im a right handed fighter and my last fight i threw 24 left jabs and never threw a right. jab-jab-takedown etc. it worked i got a parivian neck tie in the 2nd round but id still like to be a more rounded fighter.

now ive backed off my training i do jui-jitsu once a week and mma once a week. i do cardio on my own and at mma. there for awhile i was just to focused and now im a little burnt out but im going back more and more latley.

 

[Archaic_Entity]

I didn't read all of the replies, but I have a couple suggestions for martial arts in general. I've taken a few different martial arts: tae-kwon-do, folk style wrestling, and hapkido to name a couple--just to give some background.

Now, personally, so far as a self-defense style martial art goes, my personal recommendations would be to stick to stand-up style martial arts. Chances are you are a gun owner, on this forum, and chances are you want to stay standing to provide you with the ability to access your gun, and to deny access to your gun by your opponent, as well as to keep it from falling out in a rough and tumble. As far as those styles of martial arts goes, I'd recommend two different styles. Hapkido and Japanese or Small Circle Ju-jitsu. The reason I recommend these two is because they focus on maintaining control of your opponent in a standing position, while having the ability to put your opponent on the ground. They also train defense from knives and guns, which are the two most common weapons people use today. Hapkido also can train basic ground fighting, but that is not where it thrives. I know someone else mentioned that, but I did want to back up his statement.

Hapkido is based upon aikido and tae-kwon-do, but doesn't follow the formulaic method. You learn body movement drills, which are basic steps to incorporate throughout the rest of your combat. You learn hard techniques--punches, kicks, and the sort--and you learn throws, locks, and escapes. You apply them in what are called 'situationals' which is where you are attacked and defend, to train these motions to becoming instinct. It does work. I'm not too far into hapkido, however, as I am currently taking it. My roommate, however, is a black belt, and I can definitely see the benefits. He is an IUPD officer, and it is his foremost martial art.

Small Circle Ju-jitsu is also stand-up. Unlike BJJ, which focuses on take-downs and ground fighting, it focuses on finger locks and controlling your opponent while standing. I've seen a few demonstrations by the #2 best small-circle ju-jitsuist in the world, who is a Sergeant in the IUPD. This was fairly recently, and I was very, very impressed. I would take it if I had the time and/or money. He showed techniques on how to defend from guns, knives, and machetes; as well as hand-to-hand defense. It's a very solid martial art.

Now, if you're interested in ground fighting and take-downs while staying on the ground. BJJ is a very good way to go. My roommate and I agree, though, that BJJ is an awesome martial art, if it weren't for the practitioners. Most of them are hot-heads and bullies who think they're ready for MMA. Many of them are worthless in general, and I don't like training with them. Of course, that's not necessarily a fault of the art, but of the art's popularity. If you can find a school and teachers you like, I definitely recommend it. Another alternative is judo, which is very good for ground fighting and throwing. I don't recommend wrestling because they teach you a lot of things which are bad to do in an actual fight, and really can limit your ability in a situation, not that there aren't benefits to it... I just find that there is a lot of unlearning to do if you take it for self-defense purposes.

Final thought: If you intend to take multiple martial arts, I'd suggest Jeet Kun Do, as well. It's designed to take what you know, and incorporate them into a solid combat system. I don't recommend taking it first, then taking other martial arts, as you'll probably want to go back through it and feel like you missed out on a lot of its purpose. But it is a solid combat system that can bridge gaps between other martial arts you know.

 

[dcary7]

All forms have their pros and cons. In my opinion, the majority of fights take to the ground, in which case BJJ is going to help you the most. However, one thing to consider is that just because it may be a preferred style, the quality of the instruction that is available is the most important. Don't just look at the style when choosing, look at the instructor and the quality of instruction. A great style poorly instructed doesn't help you at all.

Cross training is a great way to eleviate the cons though. For example in Terre Haute McVicker's Martial Arts academy teaches BJJ and JKD. good balance of your stand up and ground fighting. The instructor is world reknowned as well. Hope it helps.

 

[Woodsman]

I think a lot of what you see with martial arts today is how the various schools/instructors tend to focus on certain realms of the specific art instead of teaching the whole art. Case in point: BJJ and small circle jiu-jitsu. While some might see one going to the ground and one used for standing up, they are essentially the same. Center of gravity, leverage, joint lockup, and axis of rotation within circles.

 

[roscott]

Also an Okinowan art called Ishin Ryu. Combines 2 Japanese styles. They allow groin strikes and limited head contact in sparring(safety equipment on though). Also no kicks above the waist.
After WW2 the marines used this to base hand to hand combat on . Not sure if that holds true today though.

I took Isshinryu for 5 years, I took boxing lessons for a bit, I took Brazilian JuJitsu while in college in Maryland, and I'm currently taking Krav Maga. (I LIKE to fight)

Isshinryu is a very useful basis, but it is not very... ugly.

You really have to decide what you want to do with your combat. If you want to get in shape and get comfortable throwing punches, lots of styles will do.

If your desire is to prepare for the possibility of getting jumped on the street by a few thugs, take Krav Maga.

Krav Maga was developed in Israel as a combination of many styles, with absolutely no rules and no limits. It is very violent and very ugly. Krav Maga always assumes two things: multiple attackers, and weapons. Train for both of these, and if you are attacked by anything less, you will be more than prepared. In my Krav classes, we are required to wear cups and mouthguards, and both definitely get used!

 

[Shay]

Roscott,
where do you train?