M4s in Afghanistan

[spartan933]

I am not a Black Rifle guy yet. I will be shortly, but not yet. Like many INGOers, I do extensive research on an prospective purchase. And, since I grew up without firearms, I have had to train myself and learn about guns.

Anyways, my research found the following video. It's part of a history on the M-16. According to the History Channel, when the M-16 was first introduced into combat in Vietnam, it was billed as an awesome rifle that could do anything without much maintenance. Naturally, jams occurred, a lot. According to the video, this situation was taken care of when cleaning kits and instructions were shipped out to the troops.

Now, I am no expert and I have never been in the military, but weapons cleaning seems to be something that they may wish to consider as a reason for the jams.

Also, it may be a good idea to look into the article's claims that SpecialOps forces are purchasing separate weapons. Perhaps someone in the Defense Dept. has something to gain by the adoption of a new infantry weapons. But, I will leave that to the Conspiracy Theorists.

And, what are the weapons that Special Ops forces are buying? Do they really not like the M4? Or, are they a bunch of gun enthusiasts with an almost unlimited budget that can outfit their arsenals as much as they want? I would, if I could.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur2xbYPouIo&feature=related]YouTube - The M16 Assault Rifle (Part 4)[/ame]

 

[NWIeng]

And, what are the weapons that Special Ops forces are buying? Do they really not like the M4? Or, are they a bunch of gun enthusiasts with an almost unlimited budget that can outfit their arsenals as much as they want? I would, if I could.
quote]

I believe they are going with the FN SCAR. Already available for civilians, but quite pricey.

 

[JByer323]

Just read this on fark.com.

I want a SCAR.

 

[Dryden]

Back to the original post... Why would such a high percentage of M4s go down at the same time? It can't be coincidence. All the previous posts have brought up some credible theories, but we're into our second decade of fighting in this environment.... we haven't figured out hoe to keep out firearms up and running by now??!!!

 

[Indecision]

So, with the M4, is this a discipline problem, or design, or what?

IMHO it's a combination of discipline or lack of knowledge and and unforgiving environment for weapons.

 

[CombatVet]

In my opinion it's the unforgiving enviornment, improper cleaning, improper lubricant and wear and tear.

 

[mettle]

Just read this on fark.com.

I want a SCAR.

Me too. It's the updated version of the AK/AR blend. I've got an Robinson Arms XCR w/ above 5K rounds in it. Same components in it, I've just replaced the firing pin recently... that about sums up parts problems.

The SCAR offers a lot of the same as the XCR; yet, it adds to the pile more swappable stuff... more pluses!!!

 

[wally05]

In my opinion it's the unforgiving enviornment, improper cleaning, improper lubricant and wear and tear.

Exactly. Have you guys seen this pic before?

This was on ARF.com. Posted by an Army Ranger. This is the rifle they issued a new ranger and when he brought it to the survival class, the instructor just reached in and pulled the barrel right off!

Now, someone brought up the HK416. Been there, done that. It has it's problems too. I love it when people compare the weapons that are failing overseas to new production weapons because the weapons that are failing have probably been in service for almost 15 years! You know how many rounds have been through those rifles?

I don't think any new rifles have been put through the torture test that some of the issued M4s have been through.

 

[mettle]

Exactly. Have you guys seen this pic before?

This was on ARF.com. Posted by an Army Ranger. This is the rifle they issued a new ranger and when he brought it to the survival class, the instructor just reached in and pulled the barrel right off!

Now, someone brought up the HK416. Been there, done that. It has it's problems too. I love it when people compare the weapons that are failing overseas to new production weapons because the weapons that are failing have probably been in service for almost 15 years! You know how many rounds have been through those rifles?

I don't think any new rifles have been put through the torture test that some of the issued M4s have been through.

You would think at some point, SOMEONE would have given it a good once over... good thing it was not taken into a hot zone...

 

[jblomenberg16]

DOH!

Looking at the pic the threads on the upper appear intact. Was the barrel nut just not installed/torqued?

 

[wally05]

He said something along the lines of no matter how much they tried to torque it or reinstall it, it would just pull right off without issue. I think he said that it wasn't the first time a weapon this bad has gone through his class. The upper was so worn where the barrel was that it was out of spec apparently... who knows. An armorer shouldn't have let it through. But, I'm sure we don't exactly have a ton of new rifles floating around, so the armorer's try to do what they can. The threads may have still be there, but the barrel nut was toast or the threads were worn at the top, allowing the barrel/nut to slide out. I'll have to ask him again.

The big point is, just because you hear of them failing sometimes overseas, I wouldn't make the judgement that the whole system needs replaced. I think a full rearmament of new rifles would do a good job, but that's me.

The infrastructure that is now in place to support the AR series would have to be COMPLETELY revamped and restocked if we switched systems. I think few people realize how much money and time it would take. Armorer's would have to be retrained also. In the middle of a ground war, it's probably not a good idea to do it now.

Piston guns (even the new SR-556) have shown carrier tilt wear (the newer SR-556 batches seem to be resisting this, though) after only 500 rounds. These guns go through a number of BARRELS before they are retired and as seen by the above picture, some are not retired until they completely break.

The SCAR seems to be a good weapon with similar ergos to the AR, but read the above paragraph about logistics. I think some armchair commandos forget about how big of a change it would be.

That is just my .02.

God bless those that died while serving. It's a sign that something has to change, but a whole weapon system switch isn't the solution in my opinion.

Colt did some reliability upgrades at the beginning of the war and the newer shipments of Colt M4s seem to be pretty well received by reports from those that got them.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Good points Wally. There are a lot of hidden costs associated with a change, both monetary and in time and logistics.

[sarcasm] But, since we have an infinite government budget, a few hundred billion dollars to completely re-arm the armed forces isn't too big of a deal, right? [/sarcasm]

 

[jblomenberg16]

He said something along the lines of no matter how much they tried to torque it or reinstall it, it would just pull right off without issue. I think he said that it wasn't the first time a weapon this bad has gone through his class. The upper was so worn where the barrel was that it was out of spec apparently... who knows. An armorer shouldn't have let it through. [snip]

Maybe that's why he tied it together with paracord?

 

[wally05]

Good points Wally. There are a lot of hidden costs associated with a change, both monetary and in time and logistics.

[sarcasm] But, since we have an infinite government budget, a few hundred billion dollars to completely re-arm the armed forces isn't too big of a deal, right? [/sarcasm]

Haha, yes, sign that blank check. I'm sure the new makers of the M4 (Since Colt just lost supreme reign over the production) will be very happy!

The AR is a weapon system similar to the 1911 in that so many makers make them, a few different producers of the system that put out crap products screw up the reputation of the whole system.

 

[mettle]

He said something along the lines of no matter how much they tried to torque it or reinstall it, it would just pull right off without issue. I think he said that it wasn't the first time a weapon this bad has gone through his class. The upper was so worn where the barrel was that it was out of spec apparently... who knows. An armorer shouldn't have let it through. But, I'm sure we don't exactly have a ton of new rifles floating around, so the armorer's try to do what they can. The threads may have still be there, but the barrel nut was toast or the threads were worn at the top, allowing the barrel/nut to slide out. I'll have to ask him again.

The big point is, just because you hear of them failing sometimes overseas, I wouldn't make the judgement that the whole system needs replaced. I think a full rearmament of new rifles would do a good job, but that's me.

The infrastructure that is now in place to support the AR series would have to be COMPLETELY revamped and restocked if we switched systems. I think few people realize how much money and time it would take. Armorer's would have to be retrained also. In the middle of a ground war, it's probably not a good idea to do it now.

Piston guns (even the new SR-556) have shown carrier tilt wear (the newer SR-556 batches seem to be resisting this, though) after only 500 rounds. These guns go through a number of BARRELS before they are retired and as seen by the above picture, some are not retired until they completely break.

The SCAR seems to be a good weapon with similar ergos to the AR, but read the above paragraph about logistics. I think some armchair commandos forget about how big of a change it would be.

That is just my .02.

God bless those that died while serving. It's a sign that something has to change, but a whole weapon system switch isn't the solution in my opinion.

Colt did some reliability upgrades at the beginning of the war and the newer shipments of Colt M4s seem to be pretty well received by reports from those that got them.

I've never had carrier tilting w/ the XCR; but, a few thou more rounds may prove otherwise...

 

[wally05]

I've never had carrier tilting w/ the XCR; but, a few thou more rounds may prove otherwise...

Yeah, I'm not saying all piston guns have the problem, but those built around the AR seem to have issues. When we get into purpose-built piston guns (SCAR, etc), we get back into the logistics issue on repairing parts, stocking, etc. I hear the XCR is a decent weapon. I'll have to try one.

 

[Agent 007]

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[SilentWarrior1]

I was going to pipe up on this... but a couple of my brothers already have, looks like!

Yes, the sand is powder-fine. It gets into EVERYTHING. We cleaned weapons as often as we could... but they were never clean "enough". I'll tell you, the loudest thing you can hear on the battlefield is the dreaded "click".

Scary as hell, even worse when you can't take cover.

 

[mettle]

Yeah, I'm not saying all piston guns have the problem, but those built around the AR seem to have issues. When we get into purpose-built piston guns (SCAR, etc), we get back into the logistics issue on repairing parts, stocking, etc. I hear the XCR is a decent weapon. I'll have to try one.

I understand, it's not the perfect gun; but, for money and what you get it's worth the $$. If you lived close I'd let you run a 1k or whatever through it so you could try it out.

 

[clfergus]

So is the common thought here that possibly older worn out rifles and a mixture of fighting conditions..Sand are the main issues?

for states side SHTF, would AR-15/M4 be the best choice or are failures likely in that situation as well?