M&P Accuracy issues

[RobbyMaQ]

Short version: MY M&P9 & 45 simply don't perform at the 25 yard mark Bench fired (20 yards and less they're great!).

M&P9 4.25" :
WWB: 11" Group
Federal: 9" Group

M&P45 4.5":
WWB: 8" Group
Federal: 6" Group

vs

XDM9 4.5" :
WWB" 5" group.
FEDERAL: 3.75" Group

M&P22 4.25" :
Winchester 555: 4" Group
CCI AR TACTICAL: 3" Group

Long version: Read below

I am relatively new to pistol shooting
I've shot rifles/shotguns a bunch all growing up (I am 42). 5 or 6 years ago, I picked up a taurus snub nosed revolver for Home defense. It's an ok pistol, simple, effective in .357. With like a 20lb trigger pull, tough to get used to, but happily I found it much like a shotgun, where you forget about the sghts alltogether, and just 'point the barrel and shoot'. I was never great with it, bever did any benchtests, etc, but I could hit a milk jug from 15 yds, so life was good.

This year (in May), I took the plunge into semi-auto pistol land, and ultimately chose the M&P9 (new test casing dated 3/2012). I specifically chose this caliber pistol to train with. I have the luxury of shooting on my property, and since then have taken a few basic training course that split between competitive and defensive pistol shooting (Trigger control, sight alignment, holster drawing, etc. the basics).

My initial impressions with the M&P9 were that it shot good groups (at 10yd), and felt great in my hand compared to the glock and xdm. I had alot of trouble shooting left and low with the m&p9... Tried everything I could with trigger control, without success up until about 300 rds through it. I recall reading a post by someone on the internet that equated to "I don't want to have to go through a 12 step program to learn the trigger on this gun". Having shot better with a 20lb trigger on the revolver, I agreed, and broke down and bought the apex Duty Kit. It was an instant success, and my POI mirrored my sight picture.

I was now absolutely in love with this pistol. So much so, that a couple months later I went and bought an M&P22 (Partly for my wife to shoot, and partly for the cheaper plinking/practice). Fast forward until early this month, and I picked up a used .45 (manuf. 2010) with night sights, and apex sear already installed, from an INGO member.

It is important to note (For those not familiar) that the m&p22 pistol is a FIXED barrel, and to my knowledge there is no apex kit available for it. So everything on this pistol is STOCK. The rear sight is also adjustable for BOTH windage and elevation.

Plinking, and training with the .22 (My wife trained in one session with me) revealed that the stock sight setup wasn't really perfect and could use some adjustment. It seemd to shoot about 1" high, and 1" left from about 10 yards. I've had alot going on between work, life, and training with the 9mm that I put off re-sighting in the pistol until a few days ago...

A GREAT DAY! (How it all started):
I set aside a half day to sight in the m&p22 and a ruger 10/22 which I recently installed tech sights. I first started sighting in the pistol at 10 yards using cci AR Tactical 22LR. The local gunshop recommended it as being extremely reliable in this pistol (of which I can concur having put about 500 rds through it with no malfunctions compared to winchester 555 which FTF in about 30 rds). Suprisingly, it took me about 45 rounds (in 5 rd groups) to get it dead nuts on center, but I guess with both windage and elevation I shouldn't have been suprised. ALL of my sighting/testing was done on a bench. I don't trust offhand. If it shoots on a bench, then I now have a benchmark to work from, and any misses off hand are totally on me. I shoot at a 1" grid, with one square greyed out. So from a distance I can see how far off I might be immediately. By the end, I was hitting 4 rds in the 1" grid, and one just outside (easily a 1-1.25" group).
At this point, I decided to take it a step further, and move to the 25 yard mark. I've never shot this far with a pistol ever.
2 more 5 rds groups, and a slight drift of the rear sight, and I had myself a nice little 3" grouping. It is at this point, that I decide to have some fun, and ask my 10yr old son, to setup to two pigeons (Clay pigeons, in holders). One pigeon, he picks up off the ground, from a previous shooting day, where the center was blown out but the outter ring still intact, and sets it up. I comment, 'Oh, trying to make it hard on your dad eh?' jokingly.
25 yards, my son spotting for me; 1st shot, 1/4" off center, 5 oclock on the full pigeon. 2nd shot, 3/8" to 1/2" off center, 5 oclock (same pigeon). 3rd shot, unknown POI, but shatters the pigeon finally.
Next up, the pigeon with the center blown out. I have about a 1-2" outter ring to try to hit. I aim for 9 oclock (on the ring), and it shatters.
I have a 5th round left with nothing to shoot at. I am utterly impressed, and extremely happy... The tech sights on the rifle sight in in about 15 rds.
But the day took a long time, spending so much time on the pistol... I decide, tomorrow, I will test fire the m&p9 and .45 to see if I can get them sighted in better...

M&P9 and 45? Not so much:
Still tripping on my high with the m&p22, I decide I will test my M&P9 & .45. The 9, I had replaced the rear sight with Dan Burwells black sight. I knew it was close, but I tended to shoot just a hair left with it. The .45, I haven't shot more than 50 rds through yet, but I will take the time to bench test it today as well, 'just because'.

10 yards, bench testing again, I get the sights on the 9 drifted perfect within 15 rds. The .45, 10 rds. easy peasey, japanesey.
Then I move to the 25 yard mark. Holy bejesus.

The .45 has a slightly longer sight radius, so I figure I will shoot it first and get it out of the way quicker. To my amazement, I get 6-8" groups, pretty much all across the board, all centered on the POI. I certainly can't adjust the sights, as I don't really see if theres a left or right or high or low pattern... another 3 groups of 5 rds each, and I am still all over the place. I try WWB, Federal, and Tula. Tula & Federal tie with 6". WWB is 8". I give up, and go to the 9mm.

The 9mm, isn't any better.. I have 9-11" groups with it... I notice a slight shift to the right, but being so far off POI, I really can't justify adjusting the sights at all. I only have federal (9" group) & WWB (11" group).

At this point, rain clouds come tumbling in, I am frustrated, and I give up.

The fact that I could shoot the 22, in 3" groups, and hit the outter ring of a pigeon from 25 yards, proves that 'trigger control' off the bench isn't the issue here. I am sorely dissapointed that neither the 9mm, nor the .45 came even close.

TODAY, I borrowed a buddy's XDM9: (in order that i fired them)
WWB got a 5" group.
PMC: 5" Group
FEDERAL: 3.75" Group
Lellior & Bellot (124gr): 3.25" Group
Hornaday: 3" Group

This is not looking good for my M&P9 (or 45 for that matter).

I love the feel of the M&P. I'll keep the .22, but if I can't hit a target confidently from 25 yards out, then I will learn to like the grip of another gun. Having to spend extra money on the trigger was acceptable... Up until now I've been a total 'fanboy', but this 25 yard experience has left me with a really bad impression.

 

[Clay]

there's a saying around there that came from a trainer....... "YSINTG"

"You suck its not the gun"

Its nothing personal, just usually its not the gun.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

there's a saying around there that came from a trainer....... "YSINTG"

"You suck its not the gun"

Its nothing personal, just usually its not the gun.

Fair enough. I suck with the M&P9 and M&P45 on the bench.
But not with the M&P22 or XDM9 on a bench.
And at 10 yards I get 1.5" groups with all 4 off hand. so I don;t suck at 10 yards with any of them.

EDIT: My Bad. I don't want to come off defensive. I truly Want to fix this issue because I do enjoy shooting M&P's (inside 10-12 yards). I just want to like them at 25

 

[ryknoll3]

OP, does your groups at that range exhibit vertical stringing? M&P's in general, especially in 9mm unlock very early and this can cause accuracy issues at longer ranges. Google it, you'll see discussions about this issue.

Can't say it's the issue in your case. The early unlocking is also an issue for suppressing the pistol, as this causes particles to get blown back into the shooters face.

ETA:

Here's a link to a discussion:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_16/122588_.html

 

[tatic05]

Never mind.....im dumb, sorry

 

[RobbyMaQ]

OP, does your groups at that range exhibit vertical stringing? M&P's in general, especially in 9mm unlock very early and this can cause accuracy issues at longer ranges. Google it, you'll see discussions about this issue.

Can't say it's the issue in your case. The early unlocking is also an issue for suppressing the pistol, as this causes particles to get blown back into the shooters face.

I've googled it. At first, to find out if there were issues with Winchester White Box ammo... But then found the lockup issues with the m&p 9's mostly.

Even then, the 45 isn;t very satisfasctory.

But, no. On both the 9 & the 45, I find my shots all over the place. I may have 2 left, 2 right, and one high. Rarely low is the only conistency I can find. I do realize that I am not the best shooter, and that even 1.5" groups at 10 yards is nothing to brag about. But the consistency is what is bothering me. I can shoot all four pistols constistently at 10 yds without issue. I feel like an idiot for having to admit that I've gone this long without shooting 25 yards... but there it is.

I don't quite understand the lockup, other than a barrel would have to be matched to the slide to help. And apparantly, S&W is not wiling to do this because of production costs. They also test accuracy at 10 yards, and as long as it is within 2", then it is considered within spec. Several google searches and other peoples reports have proven this.

I also realize that there are poeple who have not had any issues with this at all. It all seems sort of 'hit or miss' no pun intended.

I have read reports of 124 grain on the 9 doing better than 115.The xdm had some 124 grain mixed in. But I traded my M&P for the XDm temporarily while I do my tests, so I have not had a chance to run 124 grain through my 9mm. Even so, the 6" group on the 45 does not impress.

Could a better shooter do better? Yes, probably... But if I can get 3" groups on a stock trigger 22, and a 3.75" group on an xdm9, (federal) compared to a 10" group on federal with my M&P9 then that sorta tells me something comparatively speaking.

I was pulling the trigger painstakingly slow with these tests. Perhaps I was doing something wrong, I dunno. But I was concentrating so har don each slow pull (30 secs or more) to make sure I did not pull the gun left or right, and to sight on the same spot each pull.

I may not be great/experienced/what have you... but 4" vs 10"? thats ALOT of difference considering I'd only shot maybe 10 rds of the xdm before this.

EDIT; re: previous posts, on the xdm, I found I was consistently left about 1" POI and about 2-3" high POI. But on the M&P9 & 45, all over the map.
The M&P22 is a tack driver (to me), but then again I have adjusted the sights accordingly.

 

[SSGSAD]

Ok, JMHO, but are you wanting a "target" gun, or a self defense gun ?????
For ME, if I can hit a 9" paper plate, at 25 yards, that is good enough for ME. I used to be able to put 5 out of 6 rounds, in the head of a shilouette target at 25 yards... NOT anymore, too old, and OUT of PRACTICE, with that weapon... S&W Mod. 19 .357 Combat Masterpiece... NOT the weapon, but me !!!!! I am almost 30 years older too... It is what it is .... again, JMHO, but what is your intention with the 9mm, and the .45 ?????

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Ok, JMHO, but are you wanting a "target" gun, or a self defense gun ?????
For ME, if I can hit a 9" paper plate, at 25 yards, that is good enough for ME. I used to be able to put 5 out of 6 rounds, in the head of a shilouette target at 25 yards... NOT anymore, too old, and OUT of PRACTICE, with that weapon... S&W Mod. 19 .357 Combat Masterpiece... NOT the weapon, but me !!!!! I am almost 30 years older too... It is what it is .... again, JMHO, but what is your intention with the 9mm, and the .45 ?????

But 9" off hand, or from a bench, paintstakingly pulling the trigger slowly?
Well I guess this is part of it also...
Initially I got the 9mm to train with. I am REALLY comfortable with this pistol.
The 45 was a beaut from an ingo member who shall remain nameless (because in my eyes its a S&W issue), to become the replacement for the .357 as a home defense gun. If used in the home, it would not be any longer than 15 yards... so I am still confident there, as that is its purpose and is more accurate than the 9,

However... I'd thought about trying my hand at competing (uspsa or idpa)... I realize the 9 has a disadvantage, but felt it would be a good 'get my feet wet' gun. Now, I am not so sure... I carry the gun in the glove box of my car, but now I am not so confident with it.

I'd thought about going with a 40 long (Should I decide to pursue competition)... But I would DEFINATELY need to test drive it at 25 yards before I made a purchase.

So, should I really be concerned about 25 yds+ for a defenseive/carry use?

I would just hate to come across a 25+ scenario, and (among a gazillion other things not discounting a heart attack) have to worry about 'getting closer' to the target to be sure of my target. Because, in my eyes, if I have to think about getting closer to a target? I should probably be getting the hell out of there...

fwiw I still have to test some 124 gr through it tomorrow.

 

[redwingshooter]

OP, I had similar issues with my M&P9. Sent it back to S&W and they said there was nothing wrong with it. I can shoot 5 inch or less groups with my G17 all day but couldn't group worth a darn with my M&P9. So I sold it. Glad to see I'm not the only one who has had this issue.

 

[Jeremiah]

10-8 Performance: S&W M&P Barrels, An Informal Test

Plenty well documented, any very recent barrel should have these issues solved. Hilton yam at 10-8 only had great luck with 147 gr pills till he got aftermarket barrels.

 

[Lock n Load]

My G21 shot half the group sizes the M&P45 did so I sold the M&P.

I agree about grouping a defensive pistol but remember under stress you will usually open the groups up even farther.... So starting with 8" groups vs 4-5" doesn't leave alot of margin for errors.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

FWIW, Here are pics of my XDM 9mm test.
All were 25 yard except bottom right which was 10 yd.
Top (left to right): lkell & bell 124gr, 25 yd. 3.25" group. - Mid Hornaday SD round 25 yd. 3" Group (no suprise) - Right Winchester White Box 115 gr. 25 yd. 5" Group (1, 1/2" off paper at top where indicated)

Bottom Left to right: Federal 115 gr. 25 yd. 3.75" group - Mid: PMC 115 gr 25 yd. 5" group - Right; 10 yd Winchester White Box 25 yd. 1.5" Group.

The targets are simple 1" grids I print off on 8.5 x 11" paper. Used as visual reference only. I measured the grouping for each individually. I did not account for 'flyers'. Judge 'flyers' for yourselves. IMO federal 115 gr shoots well in this gun for cheap target practice.

M&P9:
Ran out of targets, so I color coded the two rods. Yellow = Federal, 9" group. Green = WWB 10-11" group. It was difficult to measure afterwards because as you can see I was missing the paper, so I indicated distance/location off the paper.

 

[spyder]

I only got through a little of that... Buy an Hk.

 

[ViperJock]

Try Speer Lawman 124g 9mm. For some reason my M&P likes those better than anything and as a rule likes 124/125 better than 115.

Also you can't compare a std M&P to and XDm out of the box. The XDm has tighter tolerance. In my experience with both, the Springfield is always a little better.

 

[Cowboy1629]

Didn't read all of your posts so forgive me if it was already mentioned. Since you are not 100% sure if it is you or the gun have you had an experience shooter try your pistol to see how well they could shoot it? I know coming from 1911's to striker fired guns I had to work on my trigger control a little more because my groups opened up some. Find a friend that shoots striker fired guns well and let them try yours, if you haven't already done so.

 

[DustyDawg48]

Some guns have a personality and it takes a bit to get used to them. I switched from Glock to the M&P and was shooting unbelievably low, like 10" at 10 yards or something insane like that...the groupings were all good but I thought I had made a major mistake in switching platforms. The problem was 2 fold; one I was used to where the Glock shot and put the front dot of the M&P where I normally would with the Glock. The M&Ps that I have all 'shoot the dots' or the bullet impacts behind the dot of the front sight. Second is the trigger. I was so used to the Glock trigger that the softness of the M&P trigger gave me fits as well. I had to adjust trigger pull, sight picture and grip to get it to shoot correctly. Now after getting used to the M&P I tend to shoot my Glocks terribly in comparison.

Go and shoot some IDPA or USPSA with those M&Ps, I'm betting that if you take your mind off the trigger and just shoot the gun you'll have better results. It is possible to go too slow when shooting and to be honest, you aren't going to be shooting that slow in any other type of competition so bench rest shooting might be a bit misleading on your results. Just practice with those guns, especially dry fire, the way you'd shoot them in competition. It's possible to over think it. I tend to have disastrous results when slow-fire shooting because that isn't me and not what I want to do. But the faster I go the less I concentrate on the trigger and the more I concentrate on the front site and it tends to come together much much better in the end.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

I have an ingo member (LEO) willing to test fire it.
I also am attending the ACT DP101 next week and will see if I can get those guys to try it at 25 yards also.

The xdm trigger seems alot like the M&P45 I have with just the apex sear in it.
The M&P9 has a full apex kit, and the break is further back in the pull, but its a light trigger. I am really hoping it's something to do with me... I'm just frustrated having done much better with the 22 & the xdm.

But I can see the 'its possible to go too slow', as these tests sorta take a toll on my eyes, and the triggers start to feel like they're 20lb after a bunch of rounds.

 

[Jeremiah]

You have a spec sheet that says the xdm is held to tighter tolerances?
I've seen plenty of factory m&p and glock barrels that shoot nearly as well as any match barrel, simply implying something by the use of the word match is silly. Match could just mean they upgraded over their own terrible barrels.

10-8 Performance: Glock vs. M&P...or why I shoot an M&P hikton yam of 10-8 performance reports 3" at 25 yards with 147 grain bullets.

 

[thumperdogg]

I have an ingo member (LEO) willing to test fire it.
I also am attending the ACT DP101 next week and will see if I can get those guys to try it at 25 yards also.

The xdm trigger seems alot like the M&P45 I have with just the apex sear in it.
The M&P9 has a full apex kit, and the break is further back in the pull, but its a light trigger. I am really hoping it's something to do with me... I'm just frustrated having done much better with the 22 & the xdm.

But I can see the 'its possible to go too slow', as these tests sorta take a toll on my eyes, and the triggers start to feel like they're 20lb after a bunch of rounds.

In my personal experience with both pistols, the XDM out performs the M&P any day of the week. I definitely shoot better groups out of the XDM than the M&P. The XDM out of the box is good to go, where as the M&P has to be built on to; apex kits, upgraded barrels, ect...

That being said, either pistol works great as a SD weapon, and I would trust my life with either one.

If you want a competition ready gun, look into the XDM 5.25 models, you will not be disappointed!

 

[Tamara]

M&P9 4.25" :
WWB: 11" Group
Federal: 9" Group

My M&P9 FS has thus far been about "minute of sheet of notebook paper" at 25 yards off a rest using std. velocity ball ammo as well. (Mostly RWS, S&B, and Lawman.)