LTCH & Mental Health

[LoneWolf2554]

I can't come up with the right words to describe that video...

I'm going to go to my kitchen now and cook bacon.

 

[hoosierbdog]

Having exhausted most of my options since I'll be putting down a "Yes" on the Mental Health question, I've opted to send in a written statement as detailed in (http://www.in.gov/isp/files/2010_Firearms_licensing_FAQs(1).pdf)

I'm going to be referencing people that could vouch for my character and current mental condition, a lot of them current LTCH holders. Do you think this is necessary or just overdoing it? I want this statement to be as formal and well thought at as possible

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Correct me if I'm wrong but voluntarily seeing a psychiatrist/psychologist over a bout of depression is not being adjudicated mentally defective, nor is it involuntary commitment to an institution of mental health. Your parents may have instructed you, as a minor, to do so, but they also held your powers since you were a minor, and when you turned 18, the age of majority, you still continued treatment, indicating a voluntary commitment to your counseling. I would not even consider listing this on anything, much less a document which determines whether you can defend yourself in public (or not).

 

[hoosierbdog]

Not once since I turned 18 have I sought Psychiatric counseling. I plan on calling ISP tomorrow to ask a few questions. Any more advice you guys have to offer is greatly appreciated. You've all been a great help so far!

 

[jsharmon7]

Correct me if I'm wrong but voluntarily seeing a psychiatrist/psychologist over a bout of depression is not being adjudicated mentally defective, nor is it involuntary commitment to an institution of mental health. Your parents may have instructed you, as a minor, to do so, but they also held your powers since you were a minor, and when you turned 18, the age of majority, you still continued treatment, indicating a voluntary commitment to your counseling. I would not even consider listing this on anything, much less a document which determines whether you can defend yourself in public (or not).

The question (in question, haha) simply asks "Have you ever been treated for psychiatric health care or an emotional or mental illness?" It doesn't specify court-ordered or voluntary. Whether the OP should go by the book is not the debate I'm having right now, I'm just going off of what ISP says on the subject. The OP is free to do whatever he/she pleases, but ISP had addressed this issue, or so it would appear.

 

[hoosierbdog]

So I just got off the phone with the ISP, and asked them about my situation. The nice lady told me to just get my statement and have it notarized.

 

[eldirector]

Well, I received my LTCH with no issues. I simply answered "no" on the mental health questions. 35-47-1-7 states a proper person has never been "committed", not just received therapy. The questions on the form don't match the requirements in the law.

My parents sent me to "therapy" as a teen as well. They thought I was "troubled". I thought was a teenager. Turns out THEY were the ones needing therapy (later divorced), and *I* am the sane one.

Good luck on your app. Sounds like you have it handled.

 

[the1kidd03]

make sure you don't forget to put the driving without a license.....a friend of mine had been charged with something in another state while on active duty, it was thrown out for lack of evidence to convict and he never was, but because he failed to mention it on his application for his LTCH he was denied and had to go through the appeal process, but eventually won....took about 2 months in all

 

[EdC]

Well, I received my LTCH with no issues. I simply answered "no" on the mental health questions. 35-47-1-7 states a proper person has never been "committed", not just received therapy. The questions on the form don't match the requirements in the law.

My parents sent me to "therapy" as a teen as well. They thought I was "troubled". I thought was a teenager. Turns out THEY were the ones needing therapy (later divorced), and *I* am the sane one.

Good luck on your app. Sounds like you have it handled.

Here's 35-47-1-7(7): "'Proper person' means a person who . . . does not make a false statement of material fact on the person's application";

 

[nirol]

I think you're doing the right thing by taking the honest route vs the 'easy' route and checking 'no.'

If your letter doesn't fly, and they require a note from a Psychologist, here's what I would do: Find a Psychologist, make an appointment, tell them why you're visiting, have them write you a letter addressed to ISP after meeting with you a couple of times stating that they see you as fit to obtain an LTCH, get LTCH. I've seen that letter work, you just have to find a credible, PHD or higher to write it for you.

Keep in mind, yes it is a pain, and will cost you a couple of co-pays. Yeah you need to pick the right therapist (ask for references). But, it will work as a last resort if everything else about your application is passable.

Sorry to hear that you've got some hurdles, but again I applaud your efforts, wish you success, and imagine you'll achieve it.

 

[eldirector]

Here's 35-47-1-7(7): "'Proper person' means a person who . . . does not make a false statement of material fact on the person's application";

Purely unintentional on my part. I had completely forgotten about it some 20 years later.

Thanks for the reminder, though.

 

[hoosierbdog]

Thanks! Given the circumstances, I think going the honest route would be the best anyways, just so I have nothing come back and bite me years down the road. I actually contacted my lawyer this morning after I got off the phone with the ISP and he instructed me to continue on with the statement while he goes over past notices to try and find my doctors, just in case.

 

[Captain Bligh]

...If your letter doesn't fly, and they require a note from a Psychologist, here's what I would do: Find a Psychologist, make an appointment, tell them why you're visiting, have them write you a letter addressed to ISP after meeting with you a couple of times stating that they see you as fit to obtain an LTCH...

Good luck with that.

It is likely not to be an easy task. We therapists are quite concerned about liability. We probably tend to be more liberal than not and probably tend to be more anti-gun than not.

I am a gun owner, LTCH holder, and INGO member. I would be disinclined to sign off after one or two meetings with someone that I did not know extremely well. You would be asking me to make an educated guess. If I get it wrong, I'm the guy that gets sued and it is my license at stake. I am not willing to risk spending the rest of my life flipping burgers for you. If I have even the slightest concern about you, I wouldn't sign.

You look hard enough and you will find somebody. It will be the same sort of person like the MD willing to give you a slip for HR to cover a day when you were on the golf course.

If you find someone, be prepared to pay for these services out of pocket:

1. Your insurance company covers services that are medically necessary.
2. It is not medically necessary to get a license to carry a handgun.
3. Guess what the therapist needs to do to bill your insurance company? He/she has to assign you a psychiatric diagnosis or the company won't pay him/her (-- and then you are right back where you started?)

Once again, if you were never committed, you never had a 72-hour psychiatric hold, if you never had an LEO encounter for a mental health issue odds are no one is ever going to know. Therapists are among the world's best secret keepers and privacy laws are on your side.

 

[Lucas156]

If the question says, "Have you ever been treated for psychiatric health care or an emotional or mental illness?" on the form what do you consider treated? Talking to a counselor or psychology to me is not receiving treatment. Taking drugs is treatment. Did you take drugs for your depression? Everyone gets the blues every once in a while and anyone that has a stable mind would be upset about someone close to them passing away.

 

[nirol]

Good luck with that.

It is likely not to be an easy task. We therapists are quite concerned about liability. We probably tend to be more liberal than not and probably tend to be more anti-gun than not.

I am a gun owner, LTCH holder, and INGO member. I would be disinclined to sign off after one or two meetings with someone that I did not know extremely well. You would be asking me to make an educated guess. If I get it wrong, I'm the guy that gets sued and it is my license at stake. I am not willing to risk spending the rest of my life flipping burgers for you. If I have even the slightest concern about you, I wouldn't sign.

You look hard enough and you will find somebody. It will be the same sort of person like the MD willing to give you a slip for HR to cover a day when you were on the golf course.

If you find someone, be prepared to pay for these services out of pocket:

1. Your insurance company covers services that are medically necessary.
2. It is not medically necessary to get a license to carry a handgun.
3. Guess what the therapist needs to do to bill your insurance company? He/she has to assign you a psychiatric diagnosis or the company won't pay him/her (-- and then you are right back where you started?)

Once again, if you were never committed, you never had a 72-hour psychiatric hold, if you never had an LEO encounter for a mental health issue odds are no one is ever going to know. Therapists are among the world's best secret keepers and privacy laws are on your side.

Don't think you'll need luck per se, because it is a viable option. Again, I said it would be a last resort if other options aren't working. Also, as a note, I abbreviate (and possibly unintentionally trivialized the process, my apologies) the process with see psych, explain, get LTCH.

Appreciate your insight, and I would agree with your concerns and possible skepticism. However, I would wonder how you would feel if you actually had a few sessions with the OP? He came to you, explained why he was there, and looked for an honest assessment of his metal stability?

I'd think that after a few sessions, you, as a quality psychologist could determine whether or not he was in there 'faking it' to just get you to sign off, versus evaluating him honestly?

The reason I suggest him being upfront about his intentions with you (therapist) is that it would seem shady if he came in and said he wanted to talk about his past mental health. Then at the end of session #2, said, 'hey, would you write a letter to the ISP? I'd like to get a permit for gun carry.'

I'd think that if he came in and told you his past 'mental history' and said: "Look, I'd like an honest evaluation from a professional regarding my therapy history and current mental state. Would you be willing to talk to me about my anxiety/past depression (real or perceived) and help me decide if I'm a good candidate in solid mental capacity or if you think I need to focus on improving areas of my mental health first?" Fully being willing to cooperate with your process of evaluation, even if it meant you weren't going to chat for 50 minutes and then sign off on a letter after one visit.

I'm also pretty pro-psychology, so I don't think it would ever be a bad thing to seek outside advice. Even for a person that isn't clinically depressed, e.g., talking to someone about stress management, mental health etc, would be a good thing in most circumstances imho. So, from my standpoint, if he's denied an LTCH, going to see someone and talk is ultimately a win-win. Is it the easiest path? Probably not, but I think that the honesty and genuine desire to get an honest evaluation and go through the process will ultimately help him achieve his main goal-getting the LTCH, with the side benefit of chatting with a professional. Just my opinion.

As to your insurance point, everyone has different insurance which I'm sure you know. I know my insurance doesn't ask me for the 'why' behind seeing a professional. For my insurance, I could simply pay the co-pay and see a mental health professional for any reason I deem necessary. I guess it could be a problem if the psychologist reported back to my insurance that I kept coming it to see if he/she liked NTWK as a penny stock...little hyperbole there, but I hope you see my point.

All that said, regardless of mental stability he could certainly run into a psychologist that is very anti, but that could be flushed out.

To your last point, regarding the confidentiality, you're probably right. He could most likely omit it, get his LTCH and be on his way. My thinking (maybe my extra anxiety/worry?? ) would be that could that come back to hurt him if he was involved in a shooting, and in a court of law work against him and delegitimize the legality of the shoot? I don't know; I'm not an attorney. Peronsally, I wouldn't want to take that chance. I'd prefer being honest, going through the process of proving that I am of mental capacity to be an LTCH owner...even if it was a longer process, cost me some co-pays, and time.

What do you think?

 

[Captain Bligh]

...I would wonder how you would feel if you actually had a few sessions with the OP?...I'd think that after a few sessions, you, as a quality psychologist could determine whether or not he was in there 'faking it' to just get you to sign off, versus evaluating him honestly?...if he came in and told you his past 'mental history' and said: "Look, I'd like an honest evaluation from a professional regarding my therapy history and current mental state. Would you be willing to talk to me about my anxiety/past depression (real or perceived) and help me decide if I'm a good candidate in solid mental capacity or if you think I need to focus on improving areas of my mental health first?"... I know my insurance doesn't ask me for the 'why' behind seeing a professional. For my insurance, I could simply pay the co-pay and see a mental health professional for any reason I deem necessary...

...What do you think?

Since you asked, here are my responses to your questions which I tried to parse out in the quote above.

1. If I saw such a person, I would tell him/her up front, "Look, you should know that I will have to get to a high level of comfort before I will sign off as you want me to do, and it is going to cost you several hundred dollars. If that concerns you, you should go see someone else right now.
2. I wouldn't do it in two sessions. I'm not sure how many it would take, maybe four. It generally takes me that many to really get a feel for someone who has LESS risk.
3. As for knowing if the person is faking it, the therapist only has a few alternatives to come to a decision: (a) psychological testing, (b) clinical judgment, or (c) some combination of the two. Our reality is that some people lie. I have had clients I have seen for six months who suddenly come come clean with some huge secret they have kept from me. We only know what people tell us or show us.
4. IF I came to a comfort level that I thought I could write such a letter (and he wouldn't go out and kill somebody and ruin my career), any letter I would write would contain qualifers such as, "In my professional opinion, ...does not presently post a risk to others at this time...based upon the information available and presented to me...Present functioning is no guarantee of future functioning...etc." In short, I'd try to find some language that would allow me to have a reasonable chance of having a home, a car, a license to practice, and something to eat when it was over if it was wrong.
5. With all due respect about your insurance company, what you say is not my experience. For traditional insurance, you may not have to tell your insurance company why you are seeing someone, but I can guarantee you that I cannot submit a bill to your insurance company without attaching a psychiatric diagnosis. I don't work with every insurance company, but I do work with most that cover employees in my area; diagnosis is required from me every time in my experience. Therefore, if one wants to minimize a paper trail back to a diagnosis, one may have to pay cash. The only exception may be if a person has an EAP benefit. EAP providers have a financial arrangement with your company to be paid without submitting a diagnosis or identifying information. (I doubt your EAP would touch this issue, but I could be wrong).
6. Most therapists go their career without being asked to do this. I've practiced for thirty years. I've been asked once. The circumstances were different (i.e., guns confiscated by law enforcement; letter needed to get them back). I was a LTCH holder at the time, an avid gun owner, and a hunter. I had to decline writing the letter because I was not convinced of the person's mentally stability and the risks to me were too high. I confess my decision was decided as much about me (i.e., liability) as it was about the client. I did not send a letter saying, "Don't give him his guns back." I did tell the client after talking to him several times that I would not sign such a letter and he was welcome to ask someone else.

 

[nirol]

Thanks for your response. The only thing that seemed odd to me was the 'traditional insurance' company line. I'm not sure if you're referring to the type of plan or the company, but I consider the high-end plans from Aetna and Blue Cross fairly traditional. Maybe we're having a miscommunication, but the point is moot I suppose.

Anyway, OP, here's my 'bottom-line' take on the insight provided here. He's the professional, and he very well might represent the 'norm' of what you'd experience with a psychologist. All I can offer you is a 'last resort' opinion on a possible solution, that includes seeking the opinion of a professional psych. Get their opinion. Obviously this doesn't mean it will automatically work for you, but I know of 1 similar situation to yours within the last 5 years that did work (professional help, few co-pays, evaluation, and a letter written that the psych was comfortable writing and signing, ISP issued LTCH). So, just throwing an option that has worked as an idea that you're free to ignore ...regardless of what you do, I wish you the best of luck!

 

[beararms1776]

Thanks! Given the circumstances, I think going the honest route would be the best anyways, just so I have nothing come back and bite me years down the road. I actually contacted my lawyer this morning after I got off the phone with the ISP and he instructed me to continue on with the statement while he goes over past notices to try and find my doctors, just in case.

Good choice. Be honest about it. Just because you consulted with professional advice, shouldn't disqualify you from your license. The action you took from the beginning should have some credibility.

 

[beararms1776]

If the question says, "Have you ever been treated for psychiatric health care or an emotional or mental illness?" on the form what do you consider treated? Talking to a counselor or psychology to me is not receiving treatment. Everyone gets the blues every once in a while and anyone that has a stable mind would be upset about someone close to them passing away.

I agree. Unfortianately, there are "some" (not all) that will in fact, knowing the circumstances, will deliberately come down hard on you in these times. Everyone goes through these times of loved ones. Many times, it's during these circumstances, some (not all) people can be the coldest and their actions and/ or words can seem abnormally agressive. It's not uncommon for people to seek someone to talk to besides family or friends.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Who knows what Big Brother really knows about all of us? But as an outpatient therapist in private practice, I am under no obligation to report my client list to anyone, and I don't. I don't know any colleagues who do either. Mandatory reporting statutes for therapist only have to do with harm. We are obligate to report child abuse. We may breach confidentiality to involve others to help keep a suicidal client safe, and we have a duty to warn persons who are under threat of harm by our clients. I have made many a child abuse report. I have on occasion involved LEO for suicidal emergencies in which they intervened and transported suicidal persons to the emergency room for psychiatric assessment and possible 72-hour hold. I have never reported, "John Doe is seeing me for counseling."

If OP's description is honest and accurate...if he was never committed...if LEOs were never involved with him for a psychiatric emergency...if he was never Court ordered for a mental health evaluation....odds are no one is going to know unless he tells them.

One of the places I work requires fingerprinting background checks on all employees. You see lots of stuff on reports but no reports of "saw a counselor."

This exactly! The wording on the 4473 says " committed "! Not " have you ever been counseled?" !



And I don't know the complete wording on the document, I may very well be wrong. I will read it again as soon as I can and verify!