Local LEO won't sign Form 4

[SERparacord]

Jurisdiction doesn't work like that in Indiana. Some states do, but we aren't one of them. We have full authority anywhere in the state, and Indiana controlled portions of bordering waterways, regardless of if we are city, county, or state LEOs. We all have jurisdiction anywhere in the state.

IC 35-41-1-1
Jurisdiction
Sec. 1. (a) As used in this section, "Indiana" includes:
(1) the area within the boundaries of the state of Indiana, as set forth in Article 14, Section 1 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana;
(2) the portion of the Ohio River on which Indiana possesses concurrent jurisdiction with the state of Kentucky under Article 14, Section 2 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana; and
(3) the portion of the Wabash River on which Indiana possesses concurrent jurisdiction with the state of Illinois under Article 14, Section 2 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana

You just described the legal boundaries of Indiana. Not who has what authority.
juridistion:
Sec. 1. (a) As used in this section, "Indiana" includes:
(1) the area within the boundaries of the state of Indiana, as set forth in Article 14, Section 1 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana;
(2) the portion of the Ohio River on which Indiana possesses concurrent jurisdiction with the state of Kentucky under Article 14, Section 2 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana; and
(3) the portion of the Wabash River on which Indiana possesses concurrent jurisdiction with the state of Illinois under Article 14, Section 2 of the Constitution of the State of Indiana.
(b) A person may be convicted under Indiana law of an offense if:
(1) either the conduct that is an element of the offense, the result that is an element, or both, occur in Indiana;
(2) conduct occurring outside Indiana is sufficient under Indiana law to constitute an attempt to commit an offense in Indiana;
(3) conduct occurring outside Indiana is sufficient under Indiana law to constitute a conspiracy to commit an offense in Indiana, and an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy occurs in Indiana;
(4) conduct occurring in Indiana establishes complicity in the commission of, or an attempt or conspiracy to commit, an offense in another jurisdiction that also is an offense under Indiana law;
(5) the offense consists of the omission to perform a duty imposed by Indiana law with respect to domicile, residence, or a relationship to a person, thing, or transaction in Indiana;
(6) conduct that is an element of the offense or the result of conduct that is an element of the offense, or both, involve the use of the Internet or another computer network (as defined in IC 35-43-2-3) and access to the Internet or other computer network occurs in Indiana; or
(7) conduct: (A) involves the use of:
(i) the Internet or another computer network (as defined in IC 35-43-2-3); or
(ii) another form of electronic communication;
(B) occurs outside Indiana and the victim of the offense resides in Indiana at the time of the offense; and
(C) is sufficient under Indiana law to constitute an offense in Indiana.
(c) When the offense is homicide, either the death of the victim or bodily impact causing death constitutes a result under subsection (b)(1). If the body of a homicide victim is found in Indiana, it is presumed that the result occurred in Indiana.
(d) If the offense is identity deception or synthetic identity deception, the lack of the victim's consent constitutes conduct that is an element of the offense under subsection (b)(1). If a victim of identity deception or synthetic identity deception resides in Indiana when a person knowingly or intentionally obtains, possesses, transfers, or uses the victim's identifying information, it is presumed that the conduct that is the lack of the victim's consent occurred in Indiana.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.1. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.1; P.L.295-1995, SEC.1; P.L.115-2005, SEC.3; P.L.125-2006, SEC.8; P.L.137-2009, SEC.12.

 

[SERparacord]

The office of sheriff is established either by the state constitution or by an act of state legislature.

A sheriff always has the power to make arrests within his or her own county.

What is a Sheriff

 

[j706]

The office of sheriff is established either by the state constitution or by an act of state legislature.

A sheriff always has the power to make arrests within his or her own county.

What is a Sheriff

True..I guess I am not seeing the point. I don't think anyone argued that a sheriff can't make an arrest. All Indiana LEO's can make an arrest in their respective county or anywhere within the state of Indiana. It doesn't matter who or what jurisdiction pays you. The sheriff of a county does not have any more arrest powers than a first year rookie from a 2 man agency.

I would have to research it but if my memory serves me the county coroner can arrest the sheriff. There are no other limitations on who can arrest whom and for what.

 

[Destro]

I am going to respectfully disagree with you. Op lives in a municipality therefore his chief of police can sign, that municipality is located in a county so the sheriff of the county can sign, that county is located in Indiana so the superintendent of the state can sign. ATF will also accept signatures from a judge or prosecutor in the applicants county of residence. I've heard of a few going the judge/prosecutor route but have never seen it personally. If you have anything from the ATF concerning that only the chief of police can sign if you life in a municipality please share it, it would be an interesting read.

A call to the ATF resulted in my discovery that I am mistaken, and you are correct.

 

[mms]

A call to the ATF resulted in my discovery that I am mistaken, and you are correct.

i think the problem is that every one confuses the ltch requirments with NFA they are diffrent in terms of who can issue.

yes in indiana for ltch it is who answeres the phone for a 911 call

but for NFA uch broader list

 

[wsenefeld]

i think the problem is that every one confuses the ltch requirments with NFA they are diffrent in terms of who can issue.

yes in indiana for ltch it is who answeres the phone for a 911 call

but for NFA uch broader list

Who answers the phone? Don't you mean who responds?

If you live in Thorntown, Lebanon, our out in the county, Boone County Dispatch answers a 911 call. I've personally lived in all 3 of those localities.

 

[ryknoll3]

You won't get anywhere with suing the local chief, unless your state has a law compelling them to sign. (Indiana doesn't, only TN does, that I know of). It's been tried before, and no one has ever prevailed. It's a completely voluntary act on the part of the CLEO, which sucks because it's required of the transferee.

 

[JoshuaW]

You won't get anywhere with suing the local chief, unless your state has a law compelling them to sign. (Indiana doesn't, only TN does, that I know of). It's been tried before, and no one has ever prevailed. It's a completely voluntary act on the part of the CLEO, which sucks because it's required of the transferee.

I would actually be interested in someone with enough money trying it in Indiana, since the state preemption law prohibits them from creating their own firearm policies. Yes it is a federal requirement, but NFA items are legal under Indiana law, and a policy to not sign paperwork is still a policy or regulation more strict than the state.

Unfortunately anyone with enough money to sue would have enough money to form a trust and be done with it. I think the only way this happens is if Guy Redford happens to think it has a chance and would take it on for free, in which case, I would happily buy another NFA item to be the test case (since I assume SBPD chief doesnt sign)

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You just described the legal boundaries of Indiana. Not who has what authority.

That's because, with few exceptions (certain types of special police/deputies as specifically limited by IC code) that *IS* the jurisdiction of an Indiana LEO. The code I quoted explains the jurisdiction that IC code is enforceable. IC code lays out arrest powers in 35-33-1. You'll note that nowhere in that IC code does it limit arrest powers for LEOs to any geographic area. So, that arrest power is only limited to the area that the IC codes themselves are limited to, what is legally "Indiana".

A "small town cop" has full authority anywhere in the state, same as in his town. A sheriff's deputy has full authority anywhere in the state, same as in his county. The state police have full authority anywhere in the state, same as on the state highways. The conservation police have full authority anywhere in the state, same as in state forests, etc. etc.

Not all states are like this. Kentucky, for example, does have jurisdiction boundaries for arrest powers and the like. It is all laid out in the Kentucky Revised Statues (KRS), but is pretty confusing because its not uniform. The size of the city that is home to the police department matters. A class 6 city's officers won't have jurisdiction outside of city limits, while a class 5 city will have jurisdiction throughout the county the city is located in.

Anyway, you can sort through the IC codes, or read this simplified blog from an attorney, but either way you'll find I'm correct in this matter.

Police Jurisdiction and When They Can Make Arrests in Indiana |*Eskew Law

 

[jkfletcher]

Russ Voils is a good guy, so is Ken Campbell. I know it's been said, but neither would have issue with a citizen having these items, so someone was pulling your chain

 

[SERparacord]

That's because, with few exceptions (certain types of special police/deputies as specifically limited by IC code) that *IS* the jurisdiction of an Indiana LEO. The code I quoted explains the jurisdiction that IC code is enforceable. IC code lays out arrest powers in 35-33-1. You'll note that nowhere in that IC code does it limit arrest powers for LEOs to any geographic area. So, that arrest power is only limited to the area that the IC codes themselves are limited to, what is legally "Indiana".

A "small town cop" has full authority anywhere in the state, same as in his town. A sheriff's deputy has full authority anywhere in the state, same as in his county. The state police have full authority anywhere in the state, same as on the state highways. The conservation police have full authority anywhere in the state, same as in state forests, etc. etc.

Not all states are like this. Kentucky, for example, does have jurisdiction boundaries for arrest powers and the like. It is all laid out in the Kentucky Revised Statues (KRS), but is pretty confusing because its not uniform. The size of the city that is home to the police department matters. A class 6 city's officers won't have jurisdiction outside of city limits, while a class 5 city will have jurisdiction throughout the county the city is located in.

Anyway, you can sort through the IC codes, or read this simplified blog from an attorney, but either way you'll find I'm correct in this matter.

Police Jurisdiction and When They Can Make Arrests in Indiana |*Eskew Law

In Indiana if you enter another jurisdiction, you had better inform them.

 

[MikeDVB]

In Indiana if you enter another jurisdiction, you had better inform them.

Now we're getting into law enforcement politics and away from what the law actually says.

Just as the ISP certainly wouldn't appreciate it if IMPD set up some speed traps on I-465 - legally there is nothing that says they can't do it.

I guess common courtesy and politics are the topic when it comes to informing another department that you're active in their jurisdiction.

 

[SERparacord]

Now we're getting into law enforcement politics and away from what the law actually says.

Just as the ISP certainly wouldn't appreciate it if IMPD set up some speed traps on I-465 - legally there is nothing that says they can't do it.

I guess common courtesy and politics are the topic when it comes to informing another department that you're active in their jurisdiction.

Lawyers love that kind of thinking.

 

[MikeDVB]

Lawyers love that kind of thinking.

I'm not a lawyer or a leo, so I'm providing my views as a, likely somewhat ignorant on the topic, civilian.

I've done a little reading on the laws, but not enough that I would be willing to testify in court about it .

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Now we're getting into law enforcement politics and away from what the law actually says.

Just as the ISP certainly wouldn't appreciate it if IMPD set up some speed traps on I-465 - legally there is nothing that says they can't do it.

I guess common courtesy and politics are the topic when it comes to informing another department that you're active in their jurisdiction.

Sort of. Law enforcement doesn't have jurisdictions other than the state borders, but courts and prosecutors do. If, for example, I wanted to right a ticket in Johnson County I would need a ticket book for that county because of the prosecutor's signature. I'm not sure how this works with the new e-tickets. If there's any troopers on here, they can probably enlighten us and I'm sure its easier than carrying half a dozen paper ticket books.

If I make an arrest in Johnson Co, I'll need to transport to Johnson county's jail (unless the original offense started in Marion County and fresh pursuit, etc) and the arrest will go through Johnson Co's courts. Typically, out of town officers will hand the prisoner to a local officer for processing just because you aren't always familiar with how another county runs inmate processing and paperwork, but that's an efficiency decision and not a legal one.

Trust me, troopers don't care if we run traffic on the interstates, and we don't care if they run traffic in town. There's no animosity there. If you work for a small town or you're a rural trooper you're just as likely to have another agency back you as you are your own.

 

[MikeDVB]

Sort of. Law enforcement doesn't have jurisdictions other than the state borders, but courts and prosecutors do. If, for example, I wanted to right a ticket in Johnson County I would need a ticket book for that county because of the prosecutor's signature. I'm not sure how this works with the new e-tickets. If there's any troopers on here, they can probably enlighten us and I'm sure its easier than carrying half a dozen paper ticket books.

Interesting, the things the average citizen doesn't know .

That said, my example still stands as far as I-465, IMPD, and Marion county. As far as being in other counties, I don't know.

Trust me, troopers don't care if we run traffic on the interstates, and we don't care if they run traffic in town. There's no animosity there. If you work for a small town or you're a rural trooper you're just as likely to have another agency back you as you are your own.

I know enough officers to know there is some animosity between different departments but I wouldn't say it's clear-cut and across-the-board.

Just like there are some cops that are jackwagons and some people that are dumba**** - but not all of them .

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I know enough officers to know there is some animosity between different departments but I wouldn't say it's clear-cut and across-the-board.

Just like there are some cops that are jackwagons and some people that are dumba**** - but not all of them .

Oh, there's rivalries and whatnot. Just never to the point that someone would get upset that an IMPD car was working the highway or ISP was working Broad Ripple. Usually its the opposite. Many, many years ago ISP wasn't assigning enough troopers to handle the crash load for Marion county's interstates. MCSD took the crashes for awhile, but then started just blocking traffic and waiting for a trooper to respond from another county if it wasn't an emergency. ISP started putting enough Troopers in the county.

I always laugh when I see the tv cops argue "this is MY case, this is MY jurisdiction". In real life, when you've got a dozen open cases (detective) or 5 pending runs (uniformed car) and someone says that, you usually say "cool, its yours, see ya".

 

[MikeDVB]

In real life, when you've got a dozen open cases (detective) or 5 pending runs (uniformed car) and someone says that, you usually say "cool, its yours, see ya".

I can totally imagine that, but have never witnessed it lol.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Also: Police officers are civilians. Your response should have been to ask him to give up all of his department's NFA weapons.[/QUOTE]

You're darn tootin'. The day that law enforcement forgets this is the day that America becomes a total police state. Sadly, this is becoming more and more common.

 

[Destro]

In Indiana if you enter another jurisdiction, you had better inform them.

as a common courtsey, but not reqired at all