Life Begins At Conception

[T.Lex]

What is amazing about the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in the mid 20th Century, is that they gave greater insight into the earliest manuscripts of documents of the time, including what we call the Old Testament of the Bible.

In no way was the Bible derived from the scrolls; the scrolls were some of the earliest examples of the Bible/Biblical books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

 

[chipbennett]

See, you're doing it again. You know I didn't apologize. Although you almost read my mind. Cause I was thinking "I'm sorry Chip isn't being intellectually honest". So 50 points for getting it part right.

Let me break it down for you...

If life begins at conception, then life did not exist prior to conception.
You're claiming no metabolic activity, growth, reaction to stimuli from either the egg or sperm prior to their combining? That is ridiculous and you know better.

We are talking about a living human organism. A gamete is merely a living cell, that does not constitute human life - that is, a living human organism. A living human organism comes into being at conception.

Life does not begin at conception. You ask how many biologist I would like you to cite? How about one. Just one. Because life was there before conception.

Otherwise, you've just stumbled on an amazing scientific discovery. Combining two dead things and creating life?

I noticed that you tried to reframe your assertion to life "existing" at inception rather than sticking with your original premise.

Human life begins at conception. An egg is not a human life. A sperm is not a human life. The organism uniquely created by the conception of egg and sperm is a human organism. How much more explicitly do I need to articulate it?

And now, take a look at the websites you linked... come on. You're telling on yourself...
Just the Facts dot org? Dedicated to important public policy issues?
The National Association for the Advancement of Preborn Children?
The Lozier Institue clearly is a pro-life organization and their borrowed position paper is a discussion of "human" life. And the discussion of "complete" human v "part of" a human is clearly structured to support an anti abortion stance.
And while the Princeton dot edu link has an impressive web domain, its a bibliogrophy of when "human" life begins and is clearly again, a pro life stance.
Did you even read them?

Did you bother to read any of the quotes, or are you sticking with the logical fallacy of refuting the quotes because of where they were sourced? Those links constitute dozens of scientists, experts in salient fields, asserting the non-controversial fact that the life of a human organism begins at conception.

Kind of makes it difficult to support your upthread assertions to PaulF that you weren't starting an anti abortion thread, don't they?

I had no intention of discussing abortion, but Paul jacked the thread. So be it.

Chip, as the father of an adopted child, I can't tell you how happy I am that she came into my life and family. And if her biological parents had decided on a different route, my life would be entirely different. I believe God was looking out for everyone involved. I'm glad of the choices that were made.

But my belief in God and His will for me, is just that. A belief. Its between me and Him. If I want to expand the discussion to include others, I will. But I'll be honest about it.

My post, and my comments in this thread, have been 100% in the context of sound science, and 0% based on religion or religious belief.

If you want to witness, have at it. I think its allowed per the recent rule relaxation. But be honest about it.

Again: I am discussing science. You've drawn the logical conclusion from accepting sound science - and I even alluded to such in my OP. But I also made it clear that the intent of the OP was to discuss what I found to be an incredibly awesome scientific observation - not because I was attempting to witness, but because I'm an engineer, and such things fascinate me.

 

[indiucky]

What is amazing about the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in the mid 20th Century, is that they gave greater insight into the earliest manuscripts of documents of the time, including what we call the Old Testament of the Bible.

Yes indeed....Before the Dead Sea Scrolls there were some 19th century (mostly German) scholars who were hinting around that some of the early references to a coming Messiah may have been "juiced up a little" in order to make it seem to fit the narrative...Once the Dead Sea Scrolls were found (and they are no where near done translating and cataloging them) is that we were able to confirm the text as we got it was the same text as they had then...Many good documentaries on the subject on youtube...

I would love to visit the museum....

 

[chipbennett]

We seem to be using several differing meanings of "life begins" interchangeably, and it is causing a lot of confusion (and argument). I have seen three uses so far:

1) In the OP, I suspect "life begins" was referring to the first moments of life for a new human individual. Prior to that moment, that individual in no way existed. After that moment, at least on a identifiable genetic level, it was a new distinct individual.

2) We then had the concept that "all life" had begun long, long before. An extension of the chicken and egg? This "new life" came from existing life, so was not really all that new.

3) And finally, that the gametes were technically alive before joining. Similar to #2 above, but more specific.

Does that cover it? Did I miss one somewhere along the line? It would be useful, for me at least, if we could decide which we are debating.

I'll also add a citation in support of #1:


Shull, A. Franklin. Principles in Animal Biology. 4th ed. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1934. Print. Pg. 146.

Yes, that basically covers it. And some are trying to disprove #1 by referencing #2 and #3, knowing full-well that the phrase "life begins at conception" applies specifically and only to #1.

(That's what's known as a Straw Man fallacy, by the way, but I learned on INGO that I'm not allowed to call people on those.)

Some other citations in support of #1:

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence...."

- Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome, and Nobel Prize Winner, Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981

"An individual human life begins at conception when a sperm cell from the father fuses with an egg cell from the mother, to form a new cell, the zygote, the first embryonic stage. The zygote grows and divides into two daughter cells, each of which grows and divides into two grand-daughter cells, and this cell growth/division process continues on, over and over again. The zygote is the start of a biological continuum that automatically grows and develops, passing gradually and sequentially through the stages we call foetus, baby, child, adult, old person and ending eventually in death. The full genetic instructions to guide the development of the continuum, in interaction with its environment, are present in the zygote. Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point."

Dr. William Reville, University College Cork, Ireland. Quote from a letter to the Irish Independent.

"Development begins at fertilization when a sperm fuses with an ovum to form a zygote; this cell is the beginning of a new human being."

Moore, Keith L., The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, page 12, W.B. Saunders Co., 2003

"In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun."

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., 1974

"A new individual is created when the elements of a potent sperm merge with those of a fertile ovum."

Encyclopedia Britannica, "Pregnancy," page 968, 15th Edition, Chicago 1974

"Development begins with fertilization, the process by which the male gamete, the sperm, and the femal gamete, the oocyte, unite to give rise to a zygote."

T.W. Sadler, Langman's Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11

"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a 'moment') is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."

Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Müller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.

“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania

“[A]fter fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Testimony before the Judiciary Subcommittee

“By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic

“It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School

“The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.”

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, who is unsympathetic to the prolife cause.

“Modern technologies have convinced us that beyond question the unborn child is simply another human being, another member of the human community, indistinguishable in every way from any of us.”

Dr. Bernard Nathanson, internationally known obstetrician and gynecologist, and cofounder of what is now the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL), in his film, “The Silent Scream,”

"I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest—that human life commences at the time of conception—and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian."

Dr. Landrum Shettles, twenty-seven years an attending obstetrician-gynecologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York, a pioneer in sperm biology, fertility, and sterility, and internationally famous for being the discoverer of male- and female-producing sperm.

"The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week-old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation. The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not a human life."

Conclusion of the First International Symposium on Abortion

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings."

Summary from the Official Senate report on Senate Bill 158, the “Human Life Bill"

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."

England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31

"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."

Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1

"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).

"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."

Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2

"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."

Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory
Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.

"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."

Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146

"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."

Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."

Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3

"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."

Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63

"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."

O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12)

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3


Of course, there are all of those scientists who hold different views. Oh, wait:

“Pro-abortionists, though invited to do so, failed to produce even a single expert witness who would specifically testify that life begins at any point other than conception or implantation. Only one witness said no one can tell when life begins.”

Unnamed, prominent physician, in testimony before the Senate

 

[PaulF]

Chip, that is a well-sourced supporting argument for your point. I applaud the effort you have put into it.

 

[indiucky]

Chip, that is a well-sourced supporting argument for your point. I applaud the effort you have put into it.

What he said....

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'm still not convinced.








LOL, just kidding.

 

[ljk]

Still don't understand the significance of what the OP found out.

If you believe life starts from a boner, or a kiss, or at birth, all fine, whatever floats your boat.

Move on.

 

[Spear Dane]

Rep given to chip for amazing post.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Still don't understand the significance of what the OP found out.

If you believe life starts from a boner, or a kiss, or at birth, all fine, whatever floats your boat.

Move on.

We are told abortion is fine because the baby with the beating heart is not alive. Killing live babies has a significance.

Some claim children aren't alive until they pass the labia, or the cord is cut, or the clear the skin on a c-section. If there is a burst of energy released at the creation of life then it's really hard to claim life did not begin at conception.

 

[oldpink]

We are told abortion is fine because the baby with the beating heart is not alive. Killing live babies has a significance.

Some claim children aren't alive until they pass the labia, or the cord is cut, or the clear the skin on a c-section. If there is a burst of energy released at the creation of life then it's really hard to claim life did not begin at conception.

It's far easier to rationalize away an unborn child by first dehumanizing him.
Throughout history, there have been scores of regimes run by those who understood that principle and put said principle into practice to achieve their goals.

 

[ljk]

We are told abortion is fine because the baby with the beating heart is not alive. Killing live babies has a significance.

Some claim children aren't alive until they pass the labia, or the cord is cut, or the clear the skin on a c-section. If there is a burst of energy released at the creation of life then it's really hard to claim life did not begin at conception.

so this is an abortion thread?

I don't believe life starts at conception, rather at the time dad gets a boner.

 

[eldirector]

I've seen many (but not all) of our current crop of youngsters.

Not sure life has started yet, in many cases.

 

[ljk]

unborn: innocent
after birth: sinned.

 

[1775usmarine]

Is it too late for the IBTL?

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I've seen many (but not all) of our current crop of youngsters.

Not sure life has started yet, in many cases.

Maybe life starts when the child has it's own cell phone plan.

 

[hoosierdoc]

so this is an abortion thread?

I don't believe life starts at conception, rather at the time dad gets a boner.

So you have fathered thousands of kids?

 

[indiucky]

Throughout history, there have been scores of regimes run by those who understood that principle and put said principle into practice to achieve their goals.

Even in my lifetime....The "Killing Fields" of Cambodia to Rwanda.....American Indians perfected it....A loose translation of most of the tribal names means "the people" and in nearly all of their languages the word for "stranger" and "enemy" have the same meaning....Same everywhere...Look how the Japanese treated Koreans and the Chinese, in Germany the Jews, in the US us with the native population and our treatment of fellow human beings as chattel to be bought and sold..

No race of humanity has clean hands when it comes to this....

Very true oldpink...Sad...But true....

 

[indiucky]

I don't believe life starts at conception, rather at the time dad gets a boner.

Well thank goodness computers don't have a pair of ovaries huh? If so there might be quite a few of these running around...

 

[HamsterStyle]

Well thank goodness computers don't have a pair of ovaries huh? If so there might be quite a few of these running around...

Hahahahaha. I still must spread more around before you get the rep.