Libertarian Opinion; Is the Concept of "Price Gouging" a Communist Concept?

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  • chizzle

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    So here's an interesting topic my wife and I discussed while driving to the in-laws for the holidays:

    Is "price gouging" a real thing, or a made up term by those dissatisfied with price fluctuations in a capitalist society?

    This was brought to my attention by the recent venomously negative reviews of Cheaper Than Dirt after they dramatically raised their prices to match (or sometimes exceed) the prices that items are being commanded on the secondary market (eBay, GunBroker, etc.).

    I am a competitive shooter (Steel Challenge, Friday Night Steel, USPSA, Bowling Pins, etc.) so I need high cap mags and guns to compete in my preferred classes. While I don't like the recent increase in prices any more than other folks, I think it is important to understand that prices convey 2 important pieces of information:

    1) Prices convey the relative cost to manufacture
    2) Prices convey the relative equilibrium point between the supply and demand

    While I think most folks understand and appreciate the first item (cost to manufacture), it sure seems like a lot of folks are outraged that demand has rapidly outpaced supply, thus driving up the current value of mags and firearms. I'm sure we've all heard the rumors about how much demand major stores have experienced; the unconfirmed rumor I had heard was that Brownells sold the same number of mags in several days than they normally sell in 3 years. I heard another claim of a business having as many transactions in one day as they normally experience in 73 normal business days. While I can't confirm those claims, clearly the surge in demand has put extraordinary pressure on our favorite suppliers, and has made it difficult or impossible for them to fulfill orders in a timely manner, if at all.

    In order for manufacturers to be able to "tool-up" their production to meet the current supply, they will need to do the following:

    1) Rapidly procure raw materials, which may exceed their current purchase contracts.
    2) Increase manpower through overtime, hiring new workers, and hiring temporary workers.
    3) Purchase new production equipment (presses, molds, milling machines, metal finishing equipment, etc.).
    4) Pay for increased utilities (water, sewer, electrical, natural gas, etc.) and get them connected to new equipment.

    I am involved with industrial water treatment, so I am often involved in the "behind the scenes" planning involved in production like this. When I started in the industry over a decade ago, I was shocked in the hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars that businesses invested in order to expand their manufacturing plants. Needless to say, if businesses are going to take this big of a financial risk, they want to be assured that they will get a payback on their investment.

    It would seem to me that financing an expansion like this could be tricky at this time. Most banks would want to reasonably guarantee a return on their loan, and a looming "assault weapons ban" (their term, not mine) combined with potential negative publicity from anti-gun groups could make financing hard to get even if the short-term business outlook is extremely positive.

    So, after taking into account the difficulty of production expansion, and still considering the HUGE demand, we run into supply and demand. Since demand greatly outpaces supply at this time (and likely will for the foreseeable future), we have 2 options:

    1) Maintain old prices
    2) Allow prices to meet the new supply and demand equilibrium point

    Here's what will I think will happen if we maintain old prices, and don't adjust to the new demand:
    A) Shortages.
    B) Black / gray market
    C) Limited production increases (don't want too much risk, likely have to self-finance).
    D) Less money going towards manufacturers that could put it towards increased manufacturing, and more money towards intermediaries that can get supply.

    Here's what I think will happen if we let manufacturer's pricing come up to reflect the new (and hopefully temporary) reality:
    1) Suppliers would charge more
    2) Less panic buying would occur because people couldn't afford as many mags, and because supply would be more predictable.
    3) Diminished black / gray markets and less speculation
    4) Suppliers would profit, which may help them prepare for potentially tough years to come.
    5) Suppliers would be able to pay higher prices to manufacturers, which would encourage more production and investments in new equipment.
    6) Indirect competition would be diminished. Plants that can make multiple items (plastic cups versus plastic mags in a simplified example), would have additional financial incentive to make gun parts and magazines, thus boosting untapped production potential.

    Summary: I think complaining about short-term "price-gouging" is an idea rooted in Communist philosophy ("each according to his need") and that is destructive to a free market. I think that allowing prices to come up to the current supply and demand equilibrium encourage our favorite manufacturers to produce more of the goods that we enjoy so much, while stamping out a self-destructive black market that benefits speculators and encourages the very panic buying that we are trying to discourage.
     
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    HavokCycle

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    ehhhh.. price gouging is people looking to cash in due to a panic.

    see - bank runs, stock inflation, etc.

    is it capitalist? indeed. hardly anything about price gouging is considered communistic.
    is it bad practice? ABSOLUTELY. people who rise above the panic will look at the companies that gave in, and won't do business with shady fellows.

    supply always returns after stabilization. honest companies rise to the situation and still do fair business. they'll keep that business afterwards as people will realize who is a good player - playing for the long game, and those that just want a quick cash-in.

    for example - a customer i've been trying to lock in but cant do to competition. my competitor runs them out of product, but guess what we have it! instead of gouging them, they pay a fair price. going forward, we get to keep that business.

    the unfortunate part of it is we got double dipped this time, first the election, then this deal. bad timing (of course it always is, but you know what i mean.)
     

    IndyDave1776

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    Market forces are what they are and those who do not like free markets and enjoy controlled prices should move to some socialist/communist paradise where shortages and rationing are commonplace. I can see a moral argument if, say, I see you on the side of the road with your car starting on fire and offer you a $25 fire extinguisher for $500, but entering the realm of price controls is a very dangerous thing even in the most extreme of circumstances by virtue of the fact that as soon as we give the .gov a tool/bludgeon to be used in the most extreme of circumstances, we soon find it being used on us every day of the week.
     

    KLB

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    ehhhh.. price gouging is people looking to cash in due to a panic.

    see - bank runs, stock inflation, etc.

    is it capitalist? indeed. hardly anything about price gouging is considered communistic.
    is it bad practice? ABSOLUTELY. people who rise above the panic will look at the companies that gave in, and won't do business with shady fellows.

    supply always returns after stabilization. honest companies rise to the situation and still do fair business. they'll keep that business afterwards as people will realize who is a good player - playing for the long game, and those that just want a quick cash-in.

    for example - a customer i've been trying to lock in but cant do to competition. my competitor runs them out of product, but guess what we have it! instead of gouging them, they pay a fair price. going forward, we get to keep that business.

    the unfortunate part of it is we got double dipped this time, first the election, then this deal. bad timing (of course it always is, but you know what i mean.)

    :yesway: well put.
     

    chizzle

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    ehhhh.. price gouging is people looking to cash in due to a panic.

    see - bank runs, stock inflation, etc.

    is it capitalist? indeed. hardly anything about price gouging is considered communistic.
    is it bad practice? ABSOLUTELY. people who rise above the panic will look at the companies that gave in, and won't do business with shady fellows.

    supply always returns after stabilization. honest companies rise to the situation and still do fair business. they'll keep that business afterwards as people will realize who is a good player - playing for the long game, and those that just want a quick cash-in.

    for example - a customer i've been trying to lock in but cant do to competition. my competitor runs them out of product, but guess what we have it! instead of gouging them, they pay a fair price. going forward, we get to keep that business.

    the unfortunate part of it is we got double dipped this time, first the election, then this deal. bad timing (of course it always is, but you know what i mean.)

    I can tell I should have done a better job phrasing my question; sorry for any ambiguity. The point that I was trying to get across is that I don't believe "price gouging" is anything other than a slam about capitalism. I think it is just a big government control scheme that people have unwittingly accepted while being frustrated at shortages (which, in this case, the government actually created!!!). For those who don't wish to pay the elevated price, there should be plenty of vendors with empty shelves who would be happy to backorder something for their prospective customers.
     

    Liberty1911

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    Market forces are what they are and those who do not like free markets and enjoy controlled prices should move to some socialist/communist paradise where shortages and rationing are commonplace. I can see a moral argument if, say, I see you on the side of the road with your car starting on fire and offer you a $25 fire extinguisher for $500, but entering the realm of price controls is a very dangerous thing even in the most extreme of circumstances by virtue of the fact that as soon as we give the .gov a tool/bludgeon to be used in the most extreme of circumstances, we soon find it being used on us every day of the week.

    Well said as always. I'd rep you but I can't. :D
     

    HavokCycle

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    I can tell I should have done a better job phrasing my question; sorry for any ambiguity. The point that I was trying to get across is that I don't believe "price gouging" is anything other than a slam about capitalism. I think it is just a big government control scheme that people have unwittingly accepted while being frustrated at shortages (which, in this case, the government actually created!!!). For those who don't wish to pay the elevated price, there should be plenty of vendors with empty shelves who would be happy to backorder something for their prospective customers.

    material shortages happen ALL the time. CONSTANTLY even. on our hands is a surge in firearms/acc/ammo demand, the supply simply isn't there to meet it at the moment, especially considering the winter months is when manufacturers start winding down production, suppliers run lean and clean out inventory so they dont have to carry it over til the new year.

    how many shortages do we have for electronics this time of the year? no one puts on a tinfoil hat because Best Buy ran out of Wiis. Which, btw, when that happened, people made a LOT of money selling them on ebay and such.

    Many years ago I pre-ordered an Xbox360, for like $350. When they finally launched, I picked mine up. My GF at the time found em selling on ebay for over a grand.
     

    poptab

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    The cause for the demand in the case of guns and mags currently is a result of the fear of future government action which is not good for the economy and ignoring that fact is a mistake.
     

    poptab

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    material shortages happen ALL the time. CONSTANTLY even. on our hands is a surge in firearms/acc/ammo demand, the supply simply isn't there to meet it at the moment, especially considering the winter months is when manufacturers start winding down production, suppliers run lean and clean out inventory so they dont have to carry it over til the new year.

    how many shortages do we have for electronics this time of the year? no one puts on a tinfoil hat because Best Buy ran out of Wiis. Which, btw, when that happened, people made a LOT of money selling them on ebay and such.

    Many years ago I pre-ordered an Xbox360, for like $350. When they finally launched, I picked mine up. My GF at the time found em selling on ebay for over a grand.
    Clearing inventory is a function of not wanting to pay inventory tax which is a function of government not the free market.
     

    chizzle

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    material shortages happen ALL the time. CONSTANTLY even. on our hands is a surge in firearms/acc/ammo demand, the supply simply isn't there to meet it at the moment, especially considering the winter months is when manufacturers start winding down production, suppliers run lean and clean out inventory so they dont have to carry it over til the new year.

    how many shortages do we have for electronics this time of the year? no one puts on a tinfoil hat because Best Buy ran out of Wiis. Which, btw, when that happened, people made a LOT of money selling them on ebay and such.

    Many years ago I pre-ordered an Xbox360, for like $350. When they finally launched, I picked mine up. My GF at the time found em selling on ebay for over a grand.

    I understand and agree that even in a perfectly capitalistic society that there could still shortages. My point is that keeping prices artificially low or damning the secondary market (eBay, GunBroker, etc.) for coming up to the new supply and demand equilibrium is counter productive.
     

    HavokCycle

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    My point is that keeping prices artificially low or damning the secondary market (eBay, GunBroker, etc.) for coming up to the new supply and demand equilibrium is counter productive.

    that can only happen in a monopoly situation. as in, if there is only ONE producer of magazines in the world, then they'd be able to dictate the price as they see fit.

    but there's not. and there wont be. believe it or not, the US still has a grand ability to create weapons. AK47s and magazines are nothing but stamped steel and a drilled thru metal rod. i can think of a billion factories with the abilities to create such.

    how many companies pop up every year making AR lowers? i see some new name just about every gun show.

    i dont know if this is the direction you're going, but if you're implying that the gov would be intent on controlling said materials and production, well then we're already screwed.
     

    Prometheus

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    Consumers need to be the determine factor of what they will pay and when.

    They also need to smart enough to remember those companies that "price gouge" and decide if they want to continue patronizing them in the future.

    cheaper than dirt is a prime example of an educated consumer base taking action. They are probably going to have to change names, if they wish to stay in business when this whole thing dies down.

    Companies like Brownels and Midway are still allowing back orders at current prices... i.e. manufactures haven't raised prices, so they aren't either.

    Setting aside the firearms community (which can be as well), Americans in general are short sighted and easily manipulated.

    Socialism, Communism and Fascism (basically what American markets are today) will never work long term.

    For free markets to actually work, you need educated consumers. Most Americans are far from being well rounded and educated (I'm not talking about public school educated either).

    That is why America, is doomed.
     

    chizzle

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    that can only happen in a monopoly situation. as in, if there is only ONE producer of magazines in the world, then they'd be able to dictate the price as they see fit.

    I understand your point, but I think that manufacturers are extremely unlikely to break from their old pricing as long as they fear their customers will scream "PRICE GOUGING!!!" every time prices come up slightly to reflect market conditions. The fact that they're holding their prices low despite an obvious black market (which represents $20 or more of potentially missed profit per magazine) proves my point.
     

    HavokCycle

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    I understand your point, but I think that manufacturers are extremely unlikely to break from their old pricing as long as they fear their customers will scream "PRICE GOUGING!!!" every time prices come up slightly to reflect market conditions. The fact that they're holding their prices low despite an obvious black market (which represents $20 or more of potentially missed profit per magazine) proves my point.

    you don't buy from manufacturers. you buy from retailers. THEY are the ones gouging you. what they're selling, was made 6 months ago. it has to filter thru the channels before it reaches your hands.

    manufacturer > distributor > retailer.

    distributors are greater affairs than retailers, organizing a big price hike isn't easily done, and there's other distributors that have to follow suit in order for it to be feasible. can't happen.

    local shops are small affairs, and can in reality, do whatever the hell they please. THEY are the ones sticking it up your chute.
     

    chizzle

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    I would disagree that organizing a price increase based on spot trends "can't happen". I work in an industry (chemical sales) where our raw materials change in that exact way, and it does indeed happen every day. If you disagree, I encourage you to Google "forced majeure" to see how manufacturers can change their pricing dramatically (again this happens in my industry regularly) and how companies like mine are forced to deal with these tough situations. That being said, retailers do their best to level out fluctuations within limits, but businesses can only "hold the line" on pricing up to an extent.

    local shops are small affairs, and can in reality, do whatever the hell they please. THEY are the ones sticking it up your chute.

    That's fair, but I don't begrudge them their higher prices. I thank them for raising their prices so that at least they have something on their shelves to sell. If you dislike supply and demand dictating market prices, do thou have an alternate method that you believe would work more effectively?
     
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