Level of Education

[rhino]

Yeah that is a valid point, however, I mean more of the whole college experience. Living on campus, taking a full course load, drinking until you have alcohol poisoning and panty-raids.

Tom, I think you may have touched on a really good idea. Let me me 'splain what I have in mind:

Coach is working on his master's right now. You clearly need to go to college so you can steal some panties and drink half a beer. I've recently realized that I'm not going anywhere in my current occupation unless and until I have a PhD or equivalent. I'm sure we know at least a few other guys in similar positions who are not complete douche bags.

Let's all go to school together. We can form our own fraternity, even if it's not officially recognized or sanctioned by the school.

It could be like a combination of "Animal House,""Old School," and "Revenge of the Nerds," all rolled into one only we'd have guns. And even though we'd be a pack o' creepy old guys, we have the advantage of the "if I knew then what I know now" going for us.

It could work!

 

[Hoosier8]

It could be like a combination of "Animal House,""Old School," and "Revenge of the Nerds," all rolled into one only we'd have guns. And even though we'd be a pack o' creepy old guys, we have the advantage of the "if I knew then what I know now" going for us.

Beautiful, it could work. I could actually get a degree and move up in the company and then become one of those douche bags, lol. Actually, that sounds good for retirement!

 

[rhino]

On a slightly more serious note . . .

I am troubled when someone lords their education over those who were not as fortunate to have the same opportunities (or who did not avail themselves of such). Elitism of any kind is abhorrent to me, whether it be pseudo-intellectual snobs, blue line police officers, rich people with no class, etc.

In the same way, I am also irritated when the pendulum swings the other way and those who do not have a formal education choose to denigrate, dismiss, and devalue the merits of formal education, and go on to demean and ridicule those who did complete their chosen level of schooling. It is very much a form of elitism as well.

There exist jacka**es in every demographic, which includes people who didn't finish the 3rd grade and people with multiple doctorates. To mock the entire group because you've met a few who displeased you in some way doesn't make a lot of sense.

I won't speculate on the reasons for any individual's anti-education prejudices, as I don't see how it would serve any purpose. However, I will make some statements that I believe to be true:

• It is patently absurd to assert that education has "nothing to do with" intelligence.
• To assert that people with advanced degrees "have no common sense" is equally absurd. Some may not, but many have a lot more than the person who is pointing the finger.
• Finishing school is really hard for a lot of people. I worked as hard to accomplish my degrees as anyone who does manual labor and I am proud of accomplishing my intermediate goals. Many others have the same experience and deserve to be proud of themselves.
• Certainly some educational paths are more or less challenging than others, but people who do not finish really don't know how hard some majors and specific programs really are, how much stress is involved, and the toll it takes on the person who is willing to commit to finishing. It's even more so for those who have additional responsibilities such as necessary jobs, families, or other challenges.
• I failed to finish the level of education I wanted because it was too hard for me to do it. I couldn't do it, at least at the time I tried. I'm not going to make some ridiculous claims about how the problem was the school or the instructors. They were far from perfect, but the system is what it is and you either do the work and finish or you don't.
• To assert that school is "worthless" is as ridiculous as claiming education has nothing to do with intelligence. What a student gets from school or other educational experience is primarily determined by what level of effort and commitment they put into it. There is a direct and strong correlation between directed effort and learning. Certainly there are other factors, but at least for teenagers and up, the responsibility to learn is theirs and theirs alone.
• Education is about opportunities and expanding options. It's not about being trained to do specific tasks, but rather to learn how to learn more efficiently.
• If a student isn't "learning anything," the fault may be a combination of factors, but ultimately the responsibility is the student's.

Everyone has the right to express their opinion, even if their rationale is clearly without merit. It is my experience that those who are the loudest critics of formal education are those who couldn't get the job done, but want to blame everyone but themself.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Rhino, whom I know and love....

I read your last post very seriously, and while I agree with it nearly to the letter, I notice that all of your bulleted points come from the perspective of one who has had a traditional extended education.

I agree that it isnt fair to state that people with advanced degrees "have no common sense", but I think the percentage of people with or without common sense is completely irrelavant from the percentage that has an advanced degree. I dont think an extended education makes one more or less likely to gain common sense. "Common sense" (which unfortunatly is that common anymore) is gained (IMO) from life experiences and ones own adventures in the great big world, NOT from anything inside the walls of a classroom.

I also agree with you "education has nothing to do with intelligence" is a foolish comment, however, I feel too many people assume that a classroom, college campus, or thesis paper is the only way to aquire intelligence. Education can be found in limitless places. Competition shooting, martial arts classes, writing bad poetry in coffee shops is all a form of education to one willing to open their mind and learn from the world around them. Intelligence is merely what you get out of an education. The issue to me is those that automatically assume that since you attended (or even graduated) from college means that you are therefore intelligent. I know plenty of people that attended school dont use anything that they "learned".

I would go so far as to say that the quality of ones "education" be it traditional or non traditional is nearly solely dependant on ones ability to open their minds, apply dedication, and be willing to learn from whatever educational source is available to them.

I heard a billion time that if I ever wanted to "be something" that I had to go to college. Whether I am or am not something (this point is debatable) will never be dependant on my level of continued education, my financial status, the job I have, or what hangs on my walls.

I dont know that I disagree with you at all, but I felt these to be nessecary supplemental statements to your prevailing theme. End result being, everyone deserves to be respected whatever their life experiences, as we have all come from different groups of experiences, oppertunities, educations, and challenges.

 

[rhino]

We definitely agree, Mike. Thanks for adding ... your comments complement mine.

You're right; my bulleted comments were from my perspective, but that was also my intent. In addition, it's my only perspective.

And you make an excellent point: your value and your self-worth ("your" in a general sense) should not depend on your education, your intelligence, or any other skill or atttibute (like being a GM makes you "better" on the Enos forums). People should be judged by how they interact with others, how they care for their families, their friends, and themselves, and whether or not they treat others with dignity and respect. The rest are details.

 

[Hoosier8]

• It is patently absurd to assert that education has "nothing to do with" intelligence.
• To assert that people with advanced degrees "have no common sense" is equally absurd. Some may not, but many have a lot more than the person who is pointing the finger.
• Finishing school is really hard for a lot of people. I worked as hard to accomplish my degrees as anyone who does manual labor and I am proud of accomplishing my intermediate goals. Many others have the same experience and deserve to be proud of themselves.
• Certainly some educational paths are more or less challenging than others, but people who do not finish really don't know how hard some majors and specific programs really are, how much stress is involved, and the toll it takes on the person who is willing to commit to finishing. It's even more so for those who have additional responsibilities such as necessary jobs, families, or other challenges.
• I failed to finish the level of education I wanted because it was too hard for me to do it. I couldn't do it, at least at the time I tried. I'm not going to make some ridiculous claims about how the problem was the school or the instructors. They were far from perfect, but the system is what it is and you either do the work and finish or you don't.
• To assert that school is "worthless" is as ridiculous as claiming education has nothing to do with intelligence. What a student gets from school or other educational experience is primarily determined by what level of effort and commitment they put into it. There is a direct and strong correlation between directed effort and learning. Certainly there are other factors, but at least for teenagers and up, the responsibility to learn is theirs and theirs alone.
• Education is about opportunities and expanding options. It's not about being trained to do specific tasks, but rather to learn how to learn more efficiently.
• If a student isn't "learning anything," the fault may be a combination of factors, but ultimately the responsibility is the student's.

It is a mistake to make a sweeping statement like the first one without explaining what you mean. Ignorance is the lack of education, not intelligence. You can be intelligent without a formal education. That does not mean that you will do well in the broader world mainly because you will not have the basis of understanding of the framework you may have to work in. Your next statement is another assumption without a basis. I know many educated idiots. Just because you have a degree does not mean that you have the capability to use it to good effect. You know what they call a medical student that barely passes medical school? Doctor.

Education is very valuable but education has changed over the years. Generally it is no longer a pursuit of liberating the mind. It is geared for preparing you for the workplace. I agree that the goal is to teach a student to learn how to learn, but that does not always happen.

I too failed to finish my chosen degree due to family obligations and just plain exhaustion. I have been fortunate to work with people from the boiler room to the board room during my career and can tell you about intelligence in the uneducated and idiocy in the educated.

 

[Coach]

Sorry Coach but High School is pretty much a waste of time after the 10th grade. Higher education now is geared towards getting a job instead of the art of liberating the mind. If securing a job and fitting into the American hegemony are of prime importance then apprenticeships and propaganda would better serve and a GED has it's place.

In this great state US History and Government class are both after the 10th grade. I am sorry but knowing the history of this nation and how our republic is supposed to work is important. You are welcome to your opinion, but you are mistaken. High school is like life. It is what you make it. If a short course and a test are equal to that something is wrong.