Knife steel to prep or not.

[.356luger]

I'm going to dip into knife making this summer and it came to me that knife steel maybe good to keep around. They sell it in different thicknesses lengths and widths. It comes in a whole spectrum of steels and with some pretty rudimentary tools you can make a weapon or useful tool out of it maybe not the prettiest but usefull non the less. Plus it's cheap

Anyone else thought about keeping a small stock pile? This is For long term SHTF not short.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I'm going to dip into knife making this summer and it came to me that knife steel maybe good to keep around. They sell it in different thicknesses lengths and widths. It comes in a whole spectrum of steels and with some pretty rudimentary tools you can make a weapon or useful tool out of it maybe not the prettiest but usefull non the less. Plus it's cheap

Anyone else thought about keeping a small stock pile? This is For long term SHTF not short.

Yup, I've got about 30-40 ball peen hammers, a bunch of SS rod different diameters, some old leaf springs, and a bucket full of HC RR spikes. I have plans for a brake drum forge and have started gathering some of the parts for it....Oh, I also have TONS, literally thousands of pounds of wrenches, ratchets and breaker bars. Think outside the box for sources of good knife steel, pawn shops sell tools CHEAP.

 

[LEaSH]

I've got just about everything I need to make a trunk-sized forge.

I should build it first to see how much propane it will use and how hot it will actually get (or if it will work at all).

 

[strahd71]

if i could make a suggestion i would consider a small stock pile of 1084 and 5160.

my reason for this is they are both relatively easy to get a good heat treat with compared to other steels and are pretty forgiving especially the 1084. it forges well, it grinds well, heat it up to non magnetic and its good to quench in a "fast oil" i personally believe in commercial quenchents for their consistency but have read where guys have had good luck with canola oil also.

the 1084 is good for camp knives and slicers and not bad for the bigger stuff

5160 has a longer soak time and likes a slower oil but you can get good results using a rigged up forge and oil. 5160 is good for chappers, machete's bowies, the bigger stuff, it gets sharp but it is a very tuff steel as it is an alloy and has excellent inpact resistance, it is also often used for axes, tomahawks and even swords. leaf springs were often times made out of 5160 but not always, you are taking a huge chance, and leaf springs are notorious having cracks that are found after forging and grinding from the stress of being a leaf spring.

the "junk" pile is good but a known steel is better, heat treat is incredibly important to the functionality of a knife. these would be my two choices and why.

here is a good link Aldo has a great reputation

NJ Steel Baron, LLC Home Page

jake

 

[TRog]

^ This guy's got the just of it! Most knife makers recommened Aldo's 1084 for a starting knivemaker but every steel has a different temp that it has to be heat treated to so the blade and edge will hold up. What ever bar of steel you use will be useless unless properly heat treated and quenched.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

Don't bother. Trust me. I have a lot of it in my basement and it's a pain to move, heavy, etc.... Learn instead to recognize "knife steel" out in the world. When Blade magazine had their first cutting competition, one of my friends Robert Rossdeutscher got second place with a knife he made out of a crowbar. The second year he got fourth place with a knife made out of rebar from a construction demolition project that turned out to have enough carbon in it to harden. If you learn steel, 15 minutes in a junk yard will show you more "knife steel" than you would ever have time in your life to forge.

 

[strahd71]

Don't bother. Trust me. I have a lot of it in my basement and it's a pain to move, heavy, etc.... Learn instead to recognize "knife steel" out in the world. When Blade magazine had their first cutting competition, one of my friends Robert Rossdeutscher got second place with a knife he made out of a crowbar. The second year he got fourth place with a knife made out of rebar from a construction demolition project that turned out to have enough carbon in it to harden. If you learn steel, 15 minutes in a junk yard will show you more "knife steel" than you would ever have time in your life to forge.

This makes much more sense really. Ignore the science of the matter, there is no reason to have any knowledge about what your working with. And seriously who would actually want set variables and be ae to get consistent results? What the heck was i thinking?

Jake

 

[GBuck]

This makes much more sense really. Ignore the science of the matter, there is no reason to have any knowledge about what your working with. And seriously who would actually want set variables and be ae to get consistent results? What the heck was i thinking?

Jake

Can I petition you to change your avatar? I apologize, it seems you really do know what you're talking about on this topic, but I just can't take you seriously with that avatar.

 

[strahd71]

Can I petition you to change your avatar? I apologize, it seems you really do know what you're talking about on this topic, but I just can't take you seriously with that avatar.

You dont think im pretty

Jake

 

[LEaSH]

Jake, that is great info you put up there.

Do you know of any way of determining what kind of steel is what by doing physical tests on it? Without a Spectro-flux-analizer, of course.

I have about 200# of this perfectly flat, uniform, 3/8" thick stuff in my garage just begging to be cut into shapes.

I've cut and ground the knife shape I like and it was neither easy or too difficult. I imagine I'll destroy them trying to heat them to critical temp, but if I knew what steel I had I might have a guideline to track down.

 

[strahd71]

Jake, that is great info you put up there.

Do you know of any way of determining what kind of steel is what by doing physical tests on it? Without a Spectro-flux-analizer, of course.

I have about 200# of this perfectly flat, uniform, 3/8" thick stuff in my garage just begging to be cut into shapes.

I've cut and ground the knife shape I like and it was neither easy or too difficult. I imagine I'll destroy them trying to heat them to critical temp, but if I knew what steel I had I might have a guideline to track down.

Your best bet because of the thickness would be to cut a two inch section off and take it to your local Fastenal and have them test it. They used to charge around $80. I have no idea if its changed. You could take a small piece and heat it to non magnetic and do a quench and then do a file or test. But there again at that thickness the outside could be somewhat hard and the inside not. Think like a case hardened bolt. Also 3/8 is doable but it takes a lot of work to get that hammered down to a usable thickness depending on what you want to do with it. If you decide to use this and forge make sure you have the largest anvil you can get. Mass = efficiency when forging. The steel just moves more on a 150 pound anvil than it does on a 50 pound.

Im on my phone in a parking lot will be happy to continue later

Jake

 

[strahd71]

Ok im having lunch and wanted to address a few more things. I am still on my phone so bare with me.

Just to be fair. Yes you can make knives from scrap. But it does require more knowledge and a known steel takes the guess work out. In the old days all knives were pretty much scrap not that they were all that great. I get annoyed with the "why do it right, i got a friend or my grandpa...." sorry for the tude earlier.

"Trunk sized forge" this is a bad idea. Smaller is better. For basic blade smithing the inside dimension really doesnt need to be bigger than 4x4 want to do hawks go 6x6. And 12-14 inches is plenty long. Remember except for heat treat or annealing/normalization your just heating a small section at a time while your working. Even in a sword. Also round is better than square. Square forges have a tendency to have hot and cold spots and being uneven. A round forge with a properly place burner at the top and at a tangent avoids this better. Simply put you want your fire to swirl around the inside of your forge. Also there are basically two kinds of propane burners the venturi or atmospheric and the blown burner. The blown burner is best. Instead of sucking air into the mix a blown burner forces air in by way of a blower this is much more efficient and you are more likely to hit welding temps with a blown burner than venturi. As far as blower size 60cfm is as small as you will want to go. And that is a little weak really. Pipe for burner should be black pipe not galvanized. The old stuff had zinc and when hot was poison. New stuff is safer but still has stuff on it. Spend the money and order and adjustable regulator running a forge should only take 3-5 pounds of pressure the one off your grill is 10+

In a prepping situation 1084 in 1/8 and 3/16 1 inch to 1.5 inch wide for knives is best here is why. As discussed before easy heat treat. Also for cutting purposes those thin thicknesses are great and are what most knives are. And with the uniform shape of shiney new stock if you had to in a SHtf situation you could actually make your knife out of a hacksaw and a file. In that case it doesnt have to be pretty just work.

With scrap you have to get it into a workable shape. Anneal it or soften it so you can work it if drilling cutting or grinding......

Jake

 

[strahd71]

Oops just read what i wrote and didnt lime how i came off on something. Trunk sized forge isnt going to work because the area is too big and the amount of gas and the burner number and size would be incredible. Sorry for the way i came off. The what i said above is still valid tho

Jake

 

[TiminMishawaka]

This makes much more sense really. Ignore the science of the matter, there is no reason to have any knowledge about what your working with. And seriously who would actually want set variables and be ae to get consistent results? What the heck was i thinking?

Jake

You were thinking how to make a cocky comment rather than ask how you might learn how to scrounge metals. You mention 5160. One of the sources of 5160 is the steel used in leaf springs of Ford trucks since the 1950s. Find a post 1950s Ford truck in the Junk yard and you will have all the 5160 you need.

Want to learn more? Be nice.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

OP, aside from not going into annealing, thermocycling, hardening and then tempering, this is one of the few times where Hollywood actually got something right about knives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vpheup5PUY

Learn how to find knife steel and you wont' have to buy it, store it and carry it. If the shtf, people will be abandoning good knife steel all over the place. If you're going to buy, store and carry knife steel you may as well buy knife steel that is already formed into a knife by Cubby or sold by Brad and Sheila.

 

[LEaSH]

Oops just read what i wrote and didnt lime how i came off on something. Trunk sized forge isnt going to work because the area is too big and the amount of gas and the burner number and size would be incredible. Sorry for the way i came off. The what i said above is still valid tho

Jake

It's all good, man. I didn't think otherwise.

I'm not yet even close to "constructing" it. It most likely be the size of a 5 gallon bucket - but who knows.

But all info like yours is vastly helpful.

I'm not really striving for the SHTF metalwerking skills, I'm more into the fun/educational angle of it - that could be used in necessary times (however unlikely). It's not like metal working is some new thing that started in recent years, right? Some knife makers would love for us to believe that they have discovered advanced new processes that only they know about, but most of that is malarkey - even if their worst knife is better than anything I'll ever make.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

Some knife makers would love for us to believe that they have discovered advanced new processes that only they know about, but most of that is malarkey - even if their worst knife is better than anything I'll ever make.

Very true. That's why I've been running a knife making forum for 9 years that teaches people how simple knifemaking really is. I almost bought a sword from a place that had all kinds of magical marketing until I learned from Tim Lively how easy knifemaking is. Incidentally his only video he sells is him making a knife from a leaf spring he got from a junkyard and his work was featured in Ron Hood's videos before he died. You can get started making knives for "free" if you know how to find stuff and have time on your hands. It's just a crapload of hard work if you really want to do it but all it really takes to learn how to make a knife is an afternoon.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

Jake, my earlier reply came out a bit "salty". My apologies for that. Primal knifemaking is one of the few areas I'm passionate about with the distribution of free information and my my passion on it gets ahead of me some times.

 

[.356luger]

Learn how to find knife steel and you wont' have to buy it, store it and carry it. If the shtf, people will be abandoning good knife steel all over the place. If you're going to buy, store and carry knife steel you may as well buy knife steel that is already formed into a knife by Cubby or sold by Brad and Sheila.

I feel as though you are missing what I am saying I'm not into metal work (yet). I don't need to know how to temper steel (yet) I am not trying to ask if I should store it. I am just trying to open peoples minds to the fact there is readily available steel blanks.

Further more knife making is a crawl before you walk process. I'm not into steel that much I'm more into blade design. Why buy a complete knife for XXX amount of dollars if avoid being a shade tree blacksmith and buy a blank of the steel I want for 12 bucks? There will be a time to learn those skills now is just not that time for me. instead of criticizing comments perhaps post info on scavengable Items and their corosponding steel.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

I feel as though you are missing what I am saying I'm not into metal work (yet). I don't need to know how to temper steel (yet) I am not trying to ask if I should store it. I am just trying to open peoples minds to the fact there is readily available steel blanks.

Further more knife making is a crawl before you walk process. I'm not into steel that much I'm more into blade design. Why buy a complete knife for XXX amount of dollars if avoid being a shade tree blacksmith and buy a blank of the steel I want for 12 bucks? There will be a time to learn those skills now is just not that time for me. instead of criticizing comments perhaps post info on scavengable Items and their corosponding steel.

You're missing what I am saying. You're assuming that people who will know what to do with knife blanks won't know how to find them for free.

I was criticized first but that's an aside. I have already posted info on salvageable items and their corresponding steel. I am not obligated to post more info if you can't be polite about it though. Seriously, I came into this thread with real information gleaned over almost a decade of experience with this and the first thing that happened was I was attacked for it.