keyholing with 9mm

[jballs]

I've been loading 45acp pretty successfully for a few months now. I finally got some 9mm cast bullets and after trying some loads out, I am finding I have bullet tumble out of both my m&p's(full size and compact).

I'm shooting 125g RN cast bullet(.356), 3.0-3.3 g Clays powder and S&B primer.
I get significant leading and wild inaccuracies. Factory ammo shoots fine in both guns.

I slugged both barrels today. The full size I get .358, compact 3.56. I've tried loading with no crimp at all but that doesn't help. I finally pulled a bullet that I had loaded and the bullets measured .353-354. Id say I found my problem, I just don't know how to correct it. How do I keep the bullet from being "resized" when I seat it?

thanks

 

[XtremeVel]

You by chance using the Lee factory crimp die ?

If so, it's cause by running the loaded round through the secondary sizer... That die not only crimps, but it has a carbide insert in bottom that actually sizes your bullet down. The thicker the wall thickness of your brass, the worse it'll size it down.

If loading lead, don't use that die.... That or if you know someone in a tool shop, have them open up the ID of the ring a few thousandth's...

 

[jballs]

You by chance using the Lee factory crimp die ?

If so, it's cause by running the loaded round through the secondary sizer... That die not only crimps, but it has a carbide insert in bottom that actually sizes your bullet down. The thicker the wall thickness of your brass, the worse it'll size it down.

If loading lead, don't use that die.... That or if you know someone in a tool shop, have them open up the ID of the ring a few thousandth's...

I do have a factory crimp die, but I didn't use it on the bullet I pulled.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Pics of the keyholing? Positive it has nothing to do with the construction of the target? I know, for example, that the "soft" paper targets (recycled paper) will tear as a bullet passes through making it seem like keyholing.

(I'm not a reloader...but I have experienced tearing targets that fooled me for a while!)

 

[1911ly]

Pics of the keyholing? Positive it has nothing to do with the construction of the target? I know, for example, that the "soft" paper targets (recycled paper) will tear as a bullet passes through making it seem like keyholing.

(I'm not a reloader...but I have experienced tearing targets that fooled me for a while!)

+1 on this. The thought my 1911 was keyholing but it turned out to be the paper targets messing with me!

 

[jballs]

Pics of the keyholing? Positive it has nothing to do with the construction of the target? I know, for example, that the "soft" paper targets (recycled paper) will tear as a bullet passes through making it seem like keyholing.

(I'm not a reloader...but I have experienced tearing targets that fooled me for a while!)

Ill post some up later but i shot the same targets with factory ammo and they punched fairly clean holes.

How do i keep the bullets from being squeezed when i seat them?

 

[mongo404]

Had the same issue..
Some info here might help

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/246528-tumbling_bullets.html

 

[jballs]

Had the same issue..
Some info here might help

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/246528-tumbling_bullets.html

I'm assuming changing from Clays fixed the issue? I've bee wanting to try some 231.

 

[mongo404]

I'm assuming changing from Clays fixed the issue? I've bee wanting to try some 231.

Yes it did. We went back to unique.. But that was our issue. Yours may be different. Did you check Diameter of bullets before loading?

 

[warthog]

You by chance using the Lee factory crimp die ?

If so, it's cause by running the loaded round through the secondary sizer... That die not only crimps, but it has a carbide insert in bottom that actually sizes your bullet down. The thicker the wall thickness of your brass, the worse it'll size it down.

If loading lead, don't use that die.... That or if you know someone in a tool shop, have them open up the ID of the ring a few thousandth's...

I use this die on all the calibers it is available. All I ever noticed was improved accuracy when I began using it. I am not looking to stir the stuff, just wondering how this can cause the keyholing?

Are you saying that the brass is squeezing the bullet as it is resized? I have to wonder also if the brass isn't being over flared if the die is squeezing things that much. Also, I get that as brass is reused over and again it gets thicker at the neck, it just never reached this point for me.

So, I am just wanting to get more info on this so I better understand since I use the die so much and have for so long that this sort of thing never occurred to me. I also never have gotten keyholes though I load heavier bullets that 115g on my 9mm's since my SD loads are heavier. I load 147g bullets and if I don't cast them myself, like now when the weather is colder than I like it to be, I buy them.

 

[KevinJ]

I read something about this either on this site or another. After checking the targets as a potential cause and those having been ruled out, someone looked down the barrel and found that one had slipped through QC. The barrle had NO RIFLING.

 

[XtremeVel]

I use this die on all the calibers it is available. All I ever noticed was improved accuracy when I began using it. I am not looking to stir the stuff, just wondering how this can cause the keyholing?

Are you saying that the brass is squeezing the bullet as it is resized? I have to wonder also if the brass isn't being over flared if the die is squeezing things that much. Also, I get that as brass is reused over and again it gets thicker at the neck, it just never reached this point for me.

So, I am just wanting to get more info on this so I better understand since I use the die so much and have for so long that this sort of thing never occurred to me. I also never have gotten keyholes though I load heavier bullets that 115g on my 9mm's since my SD loads are heavier. I load 147g bullets and if I don't cast them myself, like now when the weather is colder than I like it to be, I buy them.

Yes, the Lee factory crimp die can size down a cast bullet... When you run a cast bullet through the FCD with a bullet .001/.002 over sized, the resistance you feel is the bullet getting sized. How much depends partly on the wall thickness of the brass. Being 9mm is tapered, I have gotten by simply backing the FCD a partial turn off the shell holder. Now in a straight walled case such as .45 ACP, I took the die to work and used diamond compound and honed out a good .001 from the carbide sizer.

The reason I threw that out was more a response to his statement that his .356 dia bullets measured .353-.354 when he pulled them rather than them keyholing.. Also, his statement of having severe leading points possibly to a undersized bullet, which he clearly does have....

Now the OP states he didn't use the FCD, so I am clueless as to why his bullets are undersized. When he figures out why they are so far under after loading, I bet he will definately figure out the leading, inaccuracy, and maybe even the keyholing...

 

[warthog]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[exbrit]

larger dia bullet?

Note you are are using the .356 dia cast bullet, lots of mfrs barrels are a alittle oversized and Ruger is one of them.
THe easy fix is usually to use a slightly larger bullet. Many casters size per order and offer .357 for this problem
Roger

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Good call checking the holes vs. other ammo.

Should anyone else come across this: Those types of paper targets need to be supported by some kind of backer or they'll give goofy tears with just about any bullet - including .22LR

If you were to shoot the "wonky" loads through an unsupported portion of the target (like over the main "hole" in the backer) then shot factory loads through a clean portion of target that happened to have a backer still behind it - it'd still fool you.

OP: I hope you've gotten this figured out!

-J-

 

[jason867]

Your brass could be sizing down the bullet too.

Ask lee for a bigger case expander. There's one for another cartridge that sizes a bit bigger and works for cast 9mm. It helped me with loading cast 9mm.

I can't remember the exact cartridge it was, maybe 38 s&w (not special) or similar

 

[jason867]

Here is what I emailed Lee

Hello, currently I'm trying to reload 9mm luger with cast bullets, specifically, the Lee 125 round nose design.

Anyways, using a loadmaster and a deluxe die set, my cast bullets are getting sized down.

I use them as cast at a diameter of .357" to .359". The barrel of my 9mm gun slugs out to .355". So I need my cast bullets to stay at least .357" to keep the accuracy up and the leading down.

However, useing the above setup and pulling a few bullets from the finished cartridge shows that the bullets are getting squeezed down to .355 or .354, way too small.

I'm not sure how to remedy this. I think the brass is not getting expanded enough and is squeezing the bullet down. I've already removed the factory carbide crimp die and I still have the same problem.

Is there any way I could get a slightly larger expander for my powder thru expanding die? I'm assuming .001" under bullet diameter, so .357", would probably work.

Here is their reply

I can send you the expander plug from our 38 S&W die set. It measures .356 on the part that enters the case, but it's a little shorter (.011 inch) than the 9mm plug, so you will have to adjust the die further down into the press to get a flare on the case mouth. Be very aware that this looser bullet fit does not cause the bullet to get pushed back into the case when the round is chambered, as this can cause pressures to spike to dangerous levels.

We would also like to mention that bullet hardness is just as important as bullet diameter. We have found that if the pressure developed by the load is 90% of the compressive strength of the alloy used in casting, results are very good even if the bullet is .001 or .002 inch undersized. We believe that when the pressure developed by the load is close to the compressive strength of the bullet, the bullet "bumps up" in diameter and assumes the shape of the barrel, which is also called obturation. Mr. Lee's book, Modern Reloading, 2nd. ed. has more detailed information on this subject

 

[jballs]

Your brass could be sizing down the bullet too.

Ask lee for a bigger case expander. There's one for another cartridge that sizes a bit bigger and works for cast 9mm. It helped me with loading cast 9mm.

I can't remember the exact cartridge it was, maybe 38 s&w (not special) or similar

I believe this is what is happening. I ordered the 38 special expander insert yesterday.
I would think if the bullets were hard enough, the brass shouldn't size them down.

 

[jason867]

When I talked to lee about it, they recommended the 38 S&W expander. 38S&W is different from 38 special.

.38 S&W - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure if the 38 special expander will work or not.

Harder bullets will help, but harder alloys tend to cast smaller too. And a harder bullet may cause leading issues by itself, by not allowing 'obturation' of the bullet's base.

In addition, the brass will always be harder than the lead. And the 9mm case gets thicker as you get closer to the head, which makes it get smaller on the inside diameter, which won't help with the bullet sizing.

If the 38 special expander doesn't solve your problem, email Lee and have them send you a 38S&W expander. They sent me one for free.

I believe this is what is happening. I ordered the 38 special expander insert yesterday.
I would think if the bullets were hard enough, the brass shouldn't size them down.

 

[jballs]

When I talked to lee about it, they recommended the 38 S&W expander. 38S&W is different from 38 special.

.38 S&W - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not sure if the 38 special expander will work or not.

Harder bullets will help, but harder alloys tend to cast smaller too. And a harder bullet may cause leading issues by itself, by not allowing 'obturation' of the bullet's base.

In addition, the brass will always be harder than the lead. And the 9mm case gets thicker as you get closer to the head, which makes it get smaller on the inside diameter, which won't help with the bullet sizing.

If the 38 special expander doesn't solve your problem, email Lee and have them send you a 38S&W expander. They sent me one for free.

thanks again. I couldn't find a S&W part listed on their website so I ordered the 38 special one. I was told on another forum that it would work.