Kel-tec's Saiga killer?

[tyler34]

kinda seems like a no brainer for people wanting short compact shotguns if the price is reported to be around $700 to just buy a serbu instead and have a real "sbs" that IS reliable and proven.

 

[printcraft]

I wonder if they will come out with a side saddle mount
to carry a few extra rounds with you.................

 

[grunt soldier]

You can drop a saiga and it will still work. You can use it as a bludgeoning implement and it won't break. Also the Keltec rep on KTOG has said numerous times their firearms are not designed to fire military/nato ammunition or thousands of rounds. Strait from the horses mouth?

Combat grade (yes I did leave the word 'grade' out of the second reference in my post) may mean different things to different people. An AK is an AK is an AK, provided it is properly built, which the imported S-12's are not, even so, I've yet to see the bastardized S-12s fail to be 100% with full powered buckshot or slug loads.

Heavy is a relative term. Compared to an Bennilli super 90 or AR or compared to HK g3 or FNfal? The weight, along with a proper break means very little recoil. My S12 with full rail and side folder alll metal romainian side folder is no heavier than my PTR91.

Big? again relative. With my stock folded, it's smaller than my mossy 500 or a super 90.

Magazine size? The factory 8 rounders are perfect. Even the 10's aren't truly pushing it. They also help the center of gravity as compared to an 8 round pump.

Finicky... well I'll just focus on the neutered seconds that flood the market. Since we aren't comparing them as toys, but as defensive/offensive weapon, full powered loads will not be finicky. I don't see anyone with a brain using bird shot for self defense, so there isn't a point in exploring that avenue except to say returning to it's factory specifications resolves those issues. Also, even a super 90 has issues with birdshot after a box or two... it's something that is inherent to the semiauto shotgun platform in general when dealing with underpowered shells.

If there is a malfunction in an S12, you can always work it manually too, lol, not exactly an apples to apples comparison there. Of course, a non-922r compliant S12 with full powered shells will function like.... oh I don't know, the platform it is... an AK. AK's tend to do pretty well over there from what I've heard

Anyway as for your experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan relating to what weapons you saw... You probably didn't run into many M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, Enfields ect. ect... Obviously they are combat grade firearms

Not a rant, but definitely more than one question

i agree it was definitely more than 1 question. and i appreciate your opinions on the rest of the info you listed. some i can see and others i think are far fetched but there is no point in arguing with someone who has their mind made up already

but the one point i will hit on is that i actually did see most those weapons you listed before the ect ect ect. and those are combat grade guns because i believe all you listed were used in actual combat and still are but as far was what i saw here are some pics for ya. they still use a little bit of everything as long as it works reliably

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Here is a quote from a member of the photographers shooting party:

Caveat up front: When this was being shot, I was kicking back and relaxing by the campfire, or lugging more clays over to the thrower. I was there for this shoot, but these aren't my opinions.

After the guys put around 300 rounds through this, they have several strong opinions. The first, and they couldn't quite figure out why, is that it has less perceived recoil than a short-barrel extended-mag Remington 870.

The second is that they were trying to figure a way to hold it hostage to get another one out of Oleg. The left-handed shooters fell even harder for the KSG, because the controls are identical on each side, and the bottom load / bottom eject means it's truly ambidextrous. Preacherman was noting that the simple switch for going from one tube to the other makes it easy to load one tube with shot and the other with slugs, for whatever the situation calls for.

 

[jdhaines]

Very neat idea. I've been watching Kel-Tec since I found their 308 bull-pup on the left here

With the fancy system of dropping brass out the front.

Very interesting...

 

[GLOCK1982]

Kel-Tec needs to give that design back to NERF so they can put foam balls in it and sell it at toys r us.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Kel-Tec needs to give that design back to NERF so they can put foam balls in it and sell it at toys r us.

Why? Just because you don't like it means they shouldn't make it? Is it too revolutionary for you?

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Kel-Tec needs to give that design back to NERF so they can put foam balls in it and sell it at toys r us.

Just go over to GunRightsMedia.com and talk to the guys that have spent some time with it, they'll tell you all about how horrible it is so you don't have to waste your money on one.

Seriously though, how can you judge a book by its cover?

 

[paddling_man]

No price announced that I know of, and if the RFB is any predictor the street price will be quite a bit higher, but this might draw some Saiga customers.

Has 2 mag tubes with a feed selector.

If it was 400 or less, I would consider trying one. At >550, I would just convert a Saiga 20.

 

[LuckyGunner]

Kel Tec

I'm glad that Kel Tec exists to produce pretty much all of the new, interesting American designs. I do wish there was a way to order one with a better fit and finish. I like my PF 9 and would have been happy to pay more for a little better quality of finish.

As far as the shotgun. I'm interested. I just want to be able to try one out before I buy. Which is an issue for any of the new Kel Tec designs. Finding one in stock within a couple years of release is tough. Getting your hands on a rental is even worse. If KT can keep the price around $600 gun shop price, reliability is proven, and it's available I'll probably get one.


__________________
cheap ammo

 

[ThrottleJockey]

MSRP will come in around $700.

 

[Prometheus]

Kel-Tec needs to give that design back to NERF so they can put foam balls in it and sell it at toys r us.

 

[BigBrian]

Looks Kool,i would probably buy one after they been out for awhile. I have had some issues with KelTec in the past and $700 is premium for a KelTec. just sayin....

 

[96firephoenix]

here's how my five seconds went.
1. looks at ad, processes ad.
2. Dual-feed...
3.
4.
5.
5.5. HOLY SWEET MOTHER OF MERCY.

 

[RichardR]

The real deal killer, IMHO, is that the switch does not switch over automatically after the first tube is empty.

That's not a deal killer on this end.

The way I look at it is that flipping the selector switch is still going to be much, much quicker than say slanking 8 fresh rounds into the tube &/or swapping out an empty magazine for a full one.

As innovative as a design as it is, it would have to be pretty reliable, rugged & durable to replace my Mossberg M590A1 as my "go to long gun" though, but unfortunately reliable, rugged & durable are not terms I personally will normally associate with Keltec products, I really hope that this shotgun will be an exception to that.

 

[nipprdog]

Video of some early testing;

YouTube - Kel-Tec Shotgun (KSG)

 

[greyhound47]

Leash perfectly described the keltecs. Novelties.

These are NOT combat grade firearms and keltec has said in the past that their guns are only rated for 1,000 or 2,000 rounds depending on the model. Those posts are still on KTOG BTW.

I can't fathom how anyone could compare this to virtually any other shotgun. It's a toy/novelty. The Saiga-12 is a combat shotgun. Apples and oranges isn't even close. More like comparing a kiwi to a AK!

I remember way back when Gaston Glock's new pistols and the M16 were spoken of in the same way. Now, they are the benchmark of successful redesign of prevailing thought in the firearms industry. Not saying the KSG will end up being the new classic but I do think dismissing Kel Tecs as "novelties" is rather dismissive and presumptuous.

 

[CountryBoy19]

That's not a deal killer on this end.

The way I look at it is that flipping the selector switch is still going to be much, much quicker than say slanking 8 fresh rounds into the tube &/or swapping out an empty magazine for a full one.

As innovative as a design as it is, it would have to be pretty reliable, rugged & durable to replace my Mossberg M590A1 as my "go to long gun" though, but unfortunately reliable, rugged & durable are not terms I personally will normally associate with Keltec products, I really hope that this shotgun will be an exception to that.

Here is my take on it. I would use this primarily as a self-defense gun. IMHO, it has absolutely no other real purpose, just use a regular shotty for anything else.

With that said, if I'm ever in a SD situation I'm not going to be counting rounds, I also know that every potential shot is critical. I don't want to be the guy that pulls the trigger and hears a click, then a bang from the other guy's gun, especially when I have another full mag tube that I just didn't realize I needed to switch to.

In a SD situation, using the current configuration this is basically a 7+1 gun until you hear the click, flip the switch, then cycle the action. I don't know of anybody that can keep an accurate count of rounds fired in a SD situation; it's hard enough to do so at the range.

ETA, I re-read your post, I now understand what you're saying. Yes, flipping a switch is faster than a mag change if you were using any other weapon, but why not make it automatic when it would be so simple to do so? I think the 14+1 sort of gives a false sense of security.

I can see both sides of it. I think I'm just going to hold off for a while either way. #1 I want to see the reliability, and #2 The prototypes had both an automatic switch-over and the manual one, Keltec may further develop the auto switch-over feature in the future.

BTW, a member at arfcom is going to shoot one of these with Oleg on Wednesday. I'm excited to hear how things go.

 

[grunt soldier]

Here is my take on it. I would use this primarily as a self-defense gun. IMHO, it has absolutely no other real purpose, just use a regular shotty for anything else.

With that said, if I'm ever in a SD situation I'm not going to be counting rounds, I also know that every potential shot is critical. I don't want to be the guy that pulls the trigger and hears a click, then a bang from the other guy's gun, especially when I have another full mag tube that I just didn't realize I needed to switch to.

In a SD situation, using the current configuration this is basically a 7+1 gun until you hear the click, flip the switch, then cycle the action. I don't know of anybody that can keep an accurate count of rounds fired in a SD situation; it's hard enough to do so at the range.

so what makes it different from any 7 +1 shotgun. you hear the click on them and then half to reload completely. it doesn't matter if there is another tube or not unless i guess you can successfully count rounds out of regular shotgun better during SD situation? but instead of loading from your side saddle you just switch it over and charlie mike. i am sorry i just don't see your point at all it doesn't matter if its a shotgun or pistol if your not counting rounds when you pull the trigger you going to hear that click and half to reload so there is no real difference in your scenario.

i keep a 870 for home defense w/ a side shell holder that holds 6, so pretty close to what the keltec is holding but instead of having to pull the shells out on empty and then reload, i just switch tubes and roll definitely seems like it will shave a good amount of time on it.

 

[Prometheus]

I remember way back when Gaston Glock's new pistols and the M16 were spoken of in the same way. Now, they are the benchmark of successful redesign of prevailing thought in the firearms industry. Not saying the KSG will end up being the new classic but I do think dismissing Kel Tecs as "novelties" is rather dismissive and presumptuous.

Presumptuous? I am going on every single firearm keltec has sent out of their factory. These are not firearms that are designed to take any abuse what so ever.

Keltec trying to break into the $700 price range with this and the $1,500 range with the RFB is like yugo trying to make a $75,000 car to compete with a porsche. On the off chance they actually produced something to rival or make an equal, it's still got decades of "yugo" preceding it.

Keltec needs to stick to it's niche and produce cheap and inexpensive (disposable after a couple thousand rounds) firearms (novelties).

I'm not a keltec hater, I own a few and have sold a couple as well. I just recognize them for what they are.