Just more practice or more training?

[Notalentbum]

I'm pretty much a self taught shooter. I have a rifle that should shoot sub MOA with factory loads. I'm shooting more like 2-3 MOA. I'm just wondering is it all practice or should I be looking for some training. I've done an Appleseed and working with what they have taught me but wonder if I may be developing bad habits by continuing to practice wrong. I have looked for videos but most of what I have found is more along the lines of what I learned in the Appleseed. I do plan to do a few more Appleseeds this year. Most of what I'm currently shooting is on bench with a bipod, AR-15 and Savage model 11 in .308.
I have the supplies to reload for both but not actually loaded much yet. Bulk reloading on the AR and hand loading for the .308. The Savage is really the precision gun, I just like to compare between the two to see how I am doing.
Position pic for critique.

Thanks for any directions, Matt

 

[johntheplinker]

Just because the rifle "should" shoot MOA doesn't mean it will. Also, the ammo you're using may not agree with it. One last thing, for the ultimate accuracy, instead of using the bipod, try shooting off sandbags front and rear. Could be the recoil is causing the rifle to jump around a little. it will also remove as much of the human factor as possible.

 

[HD1911]

Your shooting Tula and expect it to be Sub-MOA?


Seriously, go do yourself a Favor and buy a couple boxes of FGMM 168gr SMK and Hornady TAP Precision 168gr AMax and see what happens after that. I have never seen those two Loads shoot over MOA out of any decent factory bolt gun, provided nothings shifting or moving around with your Rifle/Optic setup.

 

[Notalentbum]

I was shooting Federal 150gr but ran out. The Tula was all I had left at the point the pic was taken. Previous owner of gun was shooting sub MOA when he had it. He pulled his scope and I got my scope and mounts from Alan at AA Optics at last Indy 1500. All mounts were still tight after the days shooting.
Maybe need to hook up with someone to verify and prove out the rifle and setup.

Matt

 

[Jeremy1066]

I was shooting Federal 150gr but ran out. The Tula was all I had left at the point the pic was taken. Previous owner of gun was shooting sub MOA when he had it. He pulled his scope and I got my scope and mounts from Alan at AA Optics at last Indy 1500. All mounts were still tight after the days shooting.
Maybe need to hook up with someone to verify and prove out the rifle and setup.

Matt

Did you witness the previous owner shooting sub-moa? Or is that what he told you when trying to sell it?

 

[Notalentbum]

No, I was trying to buy it from him not other way around. I did not witness sub MOA first hand though. He's a good friend though so he's got no reason to BS me. He was using this rifle to build up a low buck 1000yd shooter. He found a better platform to build on. I talked him into selling this one to me. I don't expect to reach out past 300yds so I figured it would be good enough for me.

Matt

 

[halfmileharry]

Grooves clean? Dump the Tula unless you just like the noise.
The Accu-Triggers are slick enough. Check to see if the Accu Stock is rubbing the barrel or loose. I'll eventually get rid of the stock. How much time are you waiting between shots?
Mine likes 165gr HPBTs but is allergic to 150gr.

 

[cwillour]

My guess is a mix of training, practice, & ammo.

Training - Appleseeds are a good start and teach solid fundamentals. IME, though, most folks need to hear things a few times before the processes really start to sink in & I think you will find your 2nd (& 3rd) Appleseed to be nearly as helpful as your first. What you will likely see is the progression from them coaching gross skills to helping you with some of the finer points. BTW, it may be just my eyes, but is your trigger finger up against the side of your stock?

Practice - More is better, as long as you focus on the fundamentals. Even though you are using a bipod, make certain you are paying attention to your NPOA, breath control, and follow through. Also, I suggest going back to the prone for much of your practice at this point (use a bipod, sling, sandbag, whatever) to help take your back muscles out of the equation and get a proper turkey neck.

Ammo - Fed 150gr isn't bad ammo, but it is what I would consider "plinking" quality vs "match" quality. I have taken a rifle that regularly shot <0.75" groups and found that I could not get certain loads to perform better than 1.25-1.5". All I had to do was change the ammo and my groups would shrink right back down. The suggestion about trying some FGMM w/ 168gr or 175gr SMK is not a bad idea. If you cannot find the FGMM, I would suggest trying a couple of loads in the 165-168gr range. FWIW, I have had good luck with Federal's Fusion 165gr & 180gr loads.

 

[Notalentbum]

I have a bag of 175gr sierra HPBT that I am going to load up. I wanted 168gr but the 175's were all I could get at the time. I have some 168's on backorder. I will try to find some 168gr factory match loads if I shoot this weekend.

Matt

 

[HD1911]

175gr SMK 2.80 COAL 43gr of Varget or 42gr of RL 15, add favorite primer.... done deal

if u can throw or weigh the powder and keep it within .1 or .2 Grains, and u have a decent seater die that won't cause excessive run out, that should be an easy sub MOA load. Your rifle may or may not be however.

I bore sighted and zero'd a $350 Savage .270 for a Gal before Deer Season last year, and she no **** shot a 3/4" group with it at 200 Yards w/ a Box of Hornady Custom Lite 130gr Factory Ammo.

Savages normally shoot well.

Its most likely you and the ammo.

my first Bolt Gun was a Savage 10FCP .308 24" in HS Stock, skim bedded and re-crowned, and it would shoot .3-.5" 5shot groups @ 100Y all the time, with almost any respectable Match Ammo.


I will say that I've seen many a new shooters flinching whilst shooting .308s. Make sure u Do Not develop this habit, as it is hard to undo, believe me.

Dont push the round count too high and try to do an Endurance Range Session.... u will do more harm than good. Right now it is critical for you to Practice the Fundamentals nonstop.

 

[Notalentbum]

I will say that I've seen many a new shooters flinching whilst shooting .308s. Make sure u Do Not develop this habit, as it is hard to undo, believe me.

Dont push the round count too high and try to do an Endurance Range Session.... u will do more harm than good. Right now it is critical for you to Practice the Fundamentals nonstop.

Agreed. I feel as though a coach may help as someone else will see the flinch that I don't feel or notice. Back to more Appleseeds!

Obviously my loads will be unproven but I have IMR 4064 powder and was planning on 43.5 grains. My check on IMR's site showed I think 41gr at the low end and 45.1gr on the high. I figured I'd go for about the middle of that range and see how they do. I may load 40 rounds like that tomorrow in preparation of possibly shooting Sunday. I have also considered loading 20 towards the low range and 20 towards the high and see what they do on the paper.
I have wanted to shoot prone but I haven't spent the $$ for a decent shooting mat yet. Concrete is hard on my old joints as is getting back up off the ground.

Matt

 

[HD1911]

Agreed. I feel as though a coach may help as someone else will see the flinch that I don't feel or notice. Back to more Appleseeds!

Obviously my loads will be unproven but I have IMR 4064 powder and was planning on 43.5 grains. My check on IMR's site showed I think 41gr at the low end and 45.1gr on the high. I figured I'd go for about the middle of that range and see how they do. I may load 40 rounds like that tomorrow in preparation of possibly shooting Sunday. I have also considered loading 20 towards the low range and 20 towards the high and see what they do on the paper.
I have wanted to shoot prone but I haven't spent the $$ for a decent shooting mat yet. Concrete is hard on my old joints as is getting back up off the ground.

Matt

Yeah 4064 is excellent too. 43-44gr of 4064 would git'r done for sure. Hand loading is a big variable, and I have no clue your experience and quality of product, but if u truly want to eliminate that variable, buy a box of FGMM 168 or that TAP 168gr Amax Precision Load, as they are the Benchmark. No shame in that game. Look at it as you are R&D'ing your Rifle/Optic setup and your ability, so you owe it to yourself to feed it ammo that cannot be blamed whatsoever if you're still not getting desirable results.

I'm all for going prone off a bipod, with a good read bag. You can goto a local military Surplus store and buy those cheap foam bed rolls, that are about the same size as a shooting Mat. Also, a big piece of throw rug or thick Carpet that u can cut into a big rectangle works just fine as well. knee pads and elbow pads help if you're working with something thin over concrete.

When u go prone, always remember to lay straight behind the rifle, not off to the Side at an angle like some people naturally do. Also lay your feet flat on the ground and completely relaxed. Actually from the waist down u should be super relaxed. Natural Point of Aim really comes Into play here, as basically u should be inline with the rifle and it should be inline with your target, and u should not muscle it left to right at all to be center. Your Pitch (elevation muzzle control) should come from your support hand, under the rear of the stock where the sling swivel is located. if you don't have a good rear bag, go buy a package of Air Soft plastic BBs at Walmart and stuff them tightly into a sock and tie it off, works very well. You then use that rear bag under the rear of stock near sling swivel stud, and manipulate the rear bag via squeezing to get your elevation good and centered up on target.

Trigger press is ideally one of the most important executions. you must do it properly and consistently. Consistency is Accuracy, but don't be doing it consistently wrong . Dry fire the crap out of that gun at home as much as possible, even doing it with your eyes closed. build good muscle memory by doing that. Always and I mean always dry fire 10-15 times minimum right before you go hot at the range.... most of the time there is no cold bore shift, but Cold Shooter. Gets all the nerves and bugs out.

Let recoil happen... it's going to anyways.... so learn how to ride it and let it come, don't try to stop it like your a brick wall, unless you happen to be a brick wall of a man . That is part of proper follow thru, and also keep the trigger pressed to the rear until you've rode that recoil.... believe it or not there are many weird things a shooter can do thru the recoil cycle that will adversely affect the follow thru and pull shots off target. Just think about a golf swing and how important it is to follow thru... I don't know **** about golf but know that it's vital.

well, was typing all this in bed, on the cell phone.... so sorry for being brief. There's tons of stuff to cover in the world of precision and/or long range shooting.... but the fundamentals, properly mounted optics that are vetted and known to be reliable and not have any zero shift or tracking issues, and Match Grade Ammo can really show you what a rifle is really capable of.... I think here soon you'll have a smile on your face.

Ill catch back back up with ya tomorrow but please feel free to ask any and all questions.... the only stupid question is the one u don't ask. We'll get ya sorted out.

 

[Notalentbum]

I just finished loading 40 rounds of 175gr HPBT with IMR 4064. I loaded 20 with 42gr and 20 with 43gr.
I called several shops around town but couldn't find any match grade 168gr ammo. Would have been nice to compare good stuff against mine. Try to see what I can do tomorrow after work.
4064 is a pain to work with as it doesn't meter worth a crap in my powder dropper. Best I could get it was +-.5gr. so I hand weighed every load.

Matt

 

[halfmileharry]

I just finished loading 40 rounds of 175gr HPBT with IMR 4064. I loaded 20 with 42gr and 20 with 43gr.
I called several shops around town but couldn't find any match grade 168gr ammo. Would have been nice to compare good stuff against mine. Try to see what I can do tomorrow after work.
4064 is a pain to work with as it doesn't meter worth a crap in my powder dropper. Best I could get it was +-.5gr. so I hand weighed every load.

Matt

Years ago I loaded it with the old Lee yellow plastic cups. I finally got my load worked out and loaded another 4K by hand that way.
When you find the "perfect" load for the 11 you won't notice a little time spent on hole punching.

 

[Jeremy1066]

I'm a little late getting back to this, but I've also read in many places that a bipod sitting on a hard surface (wood shooting bench) is also a bad combination because the rifle will "hop". Sand bags would be much better for bench shooting IMO.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I'm a little late getting back to this, but I've also read in many places that a bipod sitting on a hard surface (wood shooting bench) is also a bad combination because the rifle will "hop". Sand bags would be much better for bench shooting IMO.

Yes, you need to properly pre-load the bipod and you can't do that very well on a hard surface. You need carpet on the table or go prone in dirt/grass. Otherwise use a bag or roll...

 

[HD1911]

Yes, you need to properly pre-load the bipod and you can't do that very well on a hard surface. You need carpet on the table or go prone in dirt/grass. Otherwise use a bag or roll...

I've shot many many .2-.4" center-to-center 5 shot groups off of Concrete with a Bipod and a rear Bag. Not saying it's ideal...

Have you ever used an Atlas BT10/17 bipod? You better believe you can pre-load that bad boy, on virtually any surface.

***NoTalentBum.... what's the Latest???



.

 

[Sm0keydaBear]

With all rifles, the best training that I've found is having a proper sighting on your target. Keep working at it, and you should get there!

 

[Notalentbum]

I spent a few hours at Atterbury this afternoon. Only had my hand loads to shoot as I couldn't find any Match grade ammo around town yesterday. Groups are better than last time but several variables changed from last time out. I shot prone today with bags under the front of the rifle. Did not have anything to hold the rear of the gun so that was all me. I warmed up with my Marlin 795 with open sights. Between my eyes and my shaky old body, I was fairly happy with my performance. I doubt many others would have been but I held about a 6" group for 30 rounds, only two flyers and both still on the paper and I knew they were bad when they went. Here's the pics of my second and third 5 shot groups. First group I shot to tweak the scope. I raised the scope 2MOA and right 1 MOA and these are the next two groups. The pic with the two bullseyes was my third group shot with 43 grains. The other was shot with 42 grains. I don't think I can blame grouping on the ammo or make any inference that the 43 grain ammo is better, or worse for that matter. Too many other variables and the biggest being the shooter.
I had more fun so it's all good. The two furthest holes on the 43 grain group are about 1.37" apart.

Matt

 

[halfmileharry]

I don't live far from Atterbury and it was pretty windy earlier. Not bad groups and nothing to be ashamed of at all. I'll bet fine tuning a few details on load, your mechanics, and concentration will bring it tight as you'd like it to be.