Just a thought on DHS' million round orders.

[Sfrandolph]

Even if our government were sitting on piles of cash and looking for a place to put it, I think they could find better places to invest it on my behalf. Instead, our government is borrowing/printing 46 of every 100 dollars it spends.

I have said before and I'll say again, history has proven nothing to be more dangerous than a broke desperate government.

Ours is beyond broke, we have been paying our bills with printed money since the crash of 08. Washington knows that this situation can not go on forever. They also know tht there is no way to tax or borrow money at the rate they are spending it. As a result, they are becoming increasingly desperate.

Right on the money David.

 

[mertbl]

I thought it was something like a 5 year contract for up to 1.5 billion rounds. Just something so that if they need the ammunition its available to them, not that they necessarily will take delivery of it.

 

[STEEL CORE]

Train with what your going to use. If you carry JHP, shoot it.

At or what I dunno yet.

 

[VN Vet]

Just donned my tin foil hat. Why was all of it JHP a much more expensive way to practice, why not just TMJ?

This is what I know. Many Police Agencies now require the Officers to practice with what they carry. Just a thought.

My tin-foil hat tells me to be afraid, be very afraid on what this big order really means.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

DHS bought about 1 1/2 billion bullets last yer. DHS employs about 230.000 people. That gives them enough "training" ammo to supply every last employee, right down to the secretarial and janitorial staff, with 6,500 rounds of ammo to "train" with.

They only train with hollow points? A procurement order for .357sig FMJ training ammo. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...3a7b9723e5b7452711810b01d56&tab=core&_cview=0
9mm blanks. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...c0834a39da23e1cfc179958c9ef&tab=core&_cview=1
Commercial leaded training ammunition, doesn't sound like HP to me. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...8adb7fe40b7489fbbf5b86eaa0e&tab=core&_cview=1

A transcript from Congressional testimony, scroll down to page 8 where it states that the annual ammo consumption in the Iraq war is 70 million rounds. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE SMALL-CALIBER AMMUNITION PROGRAMS AND THE ASSOCIATED INDUSTRIAL BASE
With what DHS bought last year alone we could supply ammo at that rate for 20 years.

If you want to believe that all of that ammo is strictly for training purposes, you go right ahead. I wont be joining you.

..............

 

[MightySanta]

DHS bought about 1 1/2 billion bullets last yer. DHS employs about 230.000 people. That gives them enough "training" ammo to supply every last employee, right down to the secretarial and janitorial staff, with 6,500 rounds of ammo to "train" with.

They only train with hollow points? A procurement order for .357sig FMJ training ammo. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...3a7b9723e5b7452711810b01d56&tab=core&_cview=0
9mm blanks. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...c0834a39da23e1cfc179958c9ef&tab=core&_cview=1
Commercial leaded training ammunition, doesn't sound like HP to me. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...8adb7fe40b7489fbbf5b86eaa0e&tab=core&_cview=1

A transcript from Congressional testimony, scroll down to page 8 where it states that the annual ammo consumption in the Iraq war is 70 million rounds. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE SMALL-CALIBER AMMUNITION PROGRAMS AND THE ASSOCIATED INDUSTRIAL BASE
With what DHS bought last year alone we could supply ammo at that rate for 20 years.

If you want to believe that all of that ammo is strictly for training purposes, you go right ahead. I wont be joining you.

 

[EOD Guy]

Contrary to popular belief, DHS hasn't bought 4 Brazilian bullets...yet. It is the way Gov’t contracts are set up. More than likely this was an IDIQ contract with a monetary ceiling that limited the number of rounds. IDIQ means Indefinite Date, Indefinite Quantity so this contract could be for many, many years and explains the “potential”quantity. I learned all this working equipment development for EOD CREW and Robotics back when I was active duty military.


Remember...the same ignorant blabbing media turds that call my son’s 10/22 an “Assault Weapons of Mass Destruction” are the same ignorant blabbing media turds talking about how DHS is stocking up and coming for you.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Let me break it down. When I was discharged, there where roughly 45,000 active duty Coast Guard personnel. A rough estimate, 41,000 of those where required to qualify twice yearly. Tactical units fired more rounds per year, as well as reserve units stationed in the Middle East. Along with recruits during basic training. My unit qualified quarterly. The course of fire for pistol was 50 rounds. So, say everyone qualified and only expended 50 rounds per qualification. We'll just say everyone only fired 100 rounds per year to qualify, just to keep it easy. Not including tactical units, reserve units, and recruits. 41,000 x 100 = 4,100,000 rounds per year. Tell me then, how does 1.5 million rounds in one year sound now? Again, these are rough estimates. As I do not know the exact number of personnel at each unit, and how often they qualified, round count per qualification per person, etc.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Contrary to popular belief, DHS hasn't bought 4 Brazilian bullets...yet. It is the way Gov’t contracts are set up. More than likely this was an IDIQ contract with a monetary ceiling that limited the number of rounds. IDIQ means Indefinite Date, Indefinite Quantity so this contract could be for many, many years and explains the “potential”quantity. I learned all this working equipment development for EOD CREW and Robotics back when I was active duty military.


Remember...the same ignorant blabbing media turds that call my son’s 10/22 an “Assault Weapons of Mass Destruction” are the same ignorant blabbing media turds talking about how DHS is stocking up and coming for you.

Well put. People do not realize that it's contracted out over years, not a single year. They also don't understand that every unit has a yearly budget. If they don't spend their yearly budget, there is a good chance it will get cut the following year. So, they will spend every last dime.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Just donned my tin foil hat. Why was all of it JHP a much more expensive way to practice, why not just TMJ?

Most, if not all agencies practice and qualify with what they carry. Even most of your security businesses such as Brinks do this. It's so you know where your shot hits every time. You know where your sights are and you don't have to worry about a different point of impact while you're on duty. You also get a better feel for the recoil of the round compared to a mildly loaded WWB round.

Anyone who carries for self defense should do the same. You always want to practice with what you carry every now and then.

Actually I heard most of the rounds were HP. So no target practice there.

See above.

No conspiracy here fellas... it's not a "OMG the .gov's gunna come kick in ma door with a million friggin rounds!". Because if they were going to, they would have already. It's simple basics for training. Calm the freak down already... people like you guys are the reason everything's become inflated and out of stock for all of us non-conspiracy-just-wanna-shoot-on-the-weekends guys.

 

[jath08]

Well put. People do not realize that it's contracted out over years, not a single year.

But here ya go a 4.6 million dollar contract with first delivery in 45 days and the rest over a 12 month period of performance. It was especially intersting to read number 5. demonstration of the nature of the acqusition requires the use authority cited.
223 Redacted J&A.pdf

Originally Posted by EOD Guy
More than likely this was an IDIQ contract with a monetary ceiling that limited the number of rounds

There was a mention of a IDIQ contract that expired and they solicited another but it failed. This does look like a IDIQ contract but one that looks to be done in 12 months from date of award.

 

[infiremedic07]

The annual ammo budget for an approx 70 man pd unit in Hamilton county is $30k per year and that is just what they use in quals and practice.

 

[Harleyrider_50]

DHS bought about 1 1/2 billion bullets last yer. DHS employs about 230.000 people. That gives them enough "training" ammo to supply every last employee, right down to the secretarial and janitorial staff, with 6,500 rounds of ammo to "train" with.

They only train with hollow points? A procurement order for .357sig FMJ training ammo. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...3a7b9723e5b7452711810b01d56&tab=core&_cview=0
9mm blanks. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...c0834a39da23e1cfc179958c9ef&tab=core&_cview=1
Commercial leaded training ammunition, doesn't sound like HP to me. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...8adb7fe40b7489fbbf5b86eaa0e&tab=core&_cview=1

A transcript from Congressional testimony, scroll down to page 8 where it states that the annual ammo consumption in the Iraq war is 70 million rounds. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE SMALL-CALIBER AMMUNITION PROGRAMS AND THE ASSOCIATED INDUSTRIAL BASE
With what DHS bought last year alone we could supply ammo at that rate for 20 years.

If you want to believe that all of that ammo is strictly for training purposes, you go right ahead. I wont be joining you.

.......ME neither,LOL!.....

 

[Disposable Heart]

Alright, fine, for the conspiracy people: Dey gonna use de bullets to shoot you. There, happy? Good lord, the fanaticism of some people.

You know alloy compressed to skin for long enough can cause toxicity and damage your brain, right?

 

[in625shooter]

I was juat throwing this out there for conversation and for others to make up their own minds. I knew I would get a few tin foil hat comments and all but the one here was in "good fun"...LOL
Now then I for one do believe that they put out the contracts in an ATTEMPT to dry up the supply a bit atleast. I think there was a number cruncher behind a desk thinking that with your DHS, Military, PDs ect ect ect, if we contract for this amount there is NO WAY the general public will be able to "stock up". Well that person or persons forgot about some people BUT with their contracts and the buying craze it HAS effectively dried up supplies of severl calibers considered combat or popular calibers.
I know my hometown PD and SD has started searching the trunks of patrol cars for hoarded "range" ammo in case they need to distribute it. By hoarded "range" ammo I mean we, when I worked there, would all ask for extra ammo for training and squirrel a little away for the JUST IN CASE situations. It always stayed in the trunks so we were not stealing it and it was therefore available to anyone.
I know when I was in the Army from 2003-2008 we fired a lot of rounds but it was just a drop in the hat compared to the millions/ billions of rounds ordered by DHS.
Another thought I had was that they knew that this would haplen and placed the orders so they would secure any new production stuff during and after a buying run. In general no one would think to ask questions about DHS or public servants getting first dibs on new production ammo while the shelves for the general public go bare. Many people mostly the antis would welcome the lack of civilian ammo while the DHS/PDs/SDs/Military get all they can.
Again I was just thinking about this and threw it out there for discussion and to keep everyone thinking. We canot become complacent on stuff like this.

I have mentioned this a couple times. I am a Lead Firearms instructor for a Federal LE agency. The amount of ammo DHS ordered is a drop in the bucket. Here are some resons.

1,JHP is not a training requirement However, Each agency has their own protocal but most do in fact train with JHP ammo. Some FMJ. It is usually up to each area's institions CEO/Boss on which type.

2. Most have a recommended shelf life of up to 5 years then the agency rotates it for training (if it is not used by then) Other than 308 ammo I have not seen any 5 year marked cases for years. Usually shoot up in training by year 4,

3. When you factor in most line officers go through around maybe 2,000 a year that would be a close guess. What no one here is factoring in is the Special Teams usage. Some team members will fire in excess of 50,000 rounds a per member troughout the course of a year.

4. When you factor in all the 10's of thousands of personnel x 3 fully loaded handguns, rifles and shotguns it will add up!

I sort of laugh when I see these threads. I have walked into armories and seen over 800,000 rounds of 9mm alone and that was for one place. Most don't realize the logistics of keeping an agency running from firearms, ammunition, parts, uniforms and all other equipment and how purchase orders work.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

OMG, DHS is kicking down my door. Damn all that ammo they bought.

 

[Archer46176]

Opinions are like rear ends everyone has one and they all stink but there js no reason for bashing others because their opinion differs froms yours...


Love it when the keyboard commando types chime in

 

[Archer46176]

I have mentioned this a couple times. I am a Lead Firearms instructor for a Federal LE agency. The amount of ammo DHS ordered is a drop in the bucket. Here are some resons.

1,JHP is not a training requirement However, Each agency has their own protocal but most do in fact train with JHP ammo. Some FMJ. It is usually up to each area's institions CEO/Boss on which type.

2. Most have a recommended shelf life of up to 5 years then the agency rotates it for training (if it is not used by then) Other than 308 ammo I have not seen any 5 year marked cases for years. Usually shoot up in training by year 4,

3. When you factor in most line officers go through around maybe 2,000 a year that would be a close guess. What no one here is factoring in is the Special Teams usage. Some team members will fire in excess of 50,000 rounds a per member troughout the course of a year.

4. When you factor in all the 10's of thousands of personnel x 3 fully loaded handguns, rifles and shotguns it will add up!

I sort of laugh when I see these threads. I have walked into armories and seen over 800,000 rounds of 9mm alone and that was for one place. Most don't realize the logistics of keeping an agency running from firearms, ammunition, parts, uniforms and all other equipment and how purchase orders work.

I for one do understand the logistics of it all. I served as a Platoon Sgt in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I was a deputy Sheriff in Ottawa Co. Michigan for several years and although I am not a "Lead Firearms" instructor for a Federal LE agency I have done my share of instructor duties bkth on the line at Ft. Benning GA and on the local level with the Ottawa Co SD.
You can laugh if you want, deny what you want and throw out the facts that you want. But for this contract, even IDIQ, to be the largest that has been seen there is something hinky going on somewhere.
IF these departments are going through so much ammo then why do they need tk rotate it every 5 years or so?
For anyone to discredit that there isnt someone, somewhere, in some agency bean cojnter cubicle thinking that it would be a good way to dry up an ammo supply if they needed to is just idiotic.
Again this thread was not meant to get all of the "tinfoil hat" comments because hinestly I think that is pretty petty. Believe what you choose to believe and let others believe what they want to believe. If you want to laugh and poke fun at others for tossing around thoughts and ideas then so be it but don't think any of us are going to care about that as much as you care about talking up your coast guard careers or your Federal LE Agency LEAD firearms instructor career ect ect ect. Plenty of us have served our country and the people of our communities you really arent all that special!

 

[in625shooter]

I for one do understand the logistics of it all. I served as a Platoon Sgt in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I was a deputy Sheriff in Ottawa Co. Michigan for several years and although I am not a "Lead Firearms" instructor for a Federal LE agency I have done my share of instructor duties bkth on the line at Ft. Benning GA and on the local level with the Ottawa Co SD.
You can laugh if you want, deny what you want and throw out the facts that you want. But for this contract, even IDIQ, to be the largest that has been seen there is something hinky going on somewhere.
IF these departments are going through so much ammo then why do they need tk rotate it every 5 years or so?
For anyone to discredit that there isnt someone, somewhere, in some agency bean cojnter cubicle thinking that it would be a good way to dry up an ammo supply if they needed to is just idiotic.
Again this thread was not meant to get all of the "tinfoil hat" comments because hinestly I think that is pretty petty. Believe what you choose to believe and let others believe what they want to believe. If you want to laugh and poke fun at others for tossing around thoughts and ideas then so be it but don't think any of us are going to care about that as much as you care about talking up your coast guard careers or your Federal LE Agency LEAD firearms instructor career ect ect ect. Plenty of us have served our country and the people of our communities you really arent all that special!

The ammunition companies manufacture billions of rounds a year. Several Million a month (like around 15 million per month as of a few years ago just for the military)
The 5 year rotation is what most agencies policies are (not all but most) that agencies have to keep the ammunition for duty use. After that it is generally rotated to use for training. Usually the ammunition does not last that long. There are a lot of people employed by the Federal Government that are required to qualify on firearms. 36,000 Bureau of Prisons, 10,000 FBI, 3000 US Marshals, about 60,000 plus Border Patrol and Customs just to name a few. Then you have DEA, Capital Police, USSS, US Park Police, DOE Nuclear Materials Couriers, Forrest Service LE Department, US Fish and Wildlife LE Department and a lot more.

As far as the Government having some plot to buy ammo and dying up the market. The ones that thought up that "story" are completely full of something. In 2009 we (yes the Government) had trouble getting ammunition because of the first buying frenzy from the last election.

Here is a little thing that breaks most of the stats of Federal LE numbers. There are actually more personnel than listed here that have to qualify with firearms but this give you a general breakdown on the shear volume of the FED's and why they use just a few cases of ammunition.

Look at Table 1
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fleo08.pdf

 

[jgreiner]

I haven't seen anything here addressing this but if it is a duplicate post I appologize.

Awhile back there were orders placed by DHS for millions of round of 5.56, .40 and .308, there may have been some .45, 9mm and 12 gauge too but I don't recall that right now.

Does anyone else find it odd that DHS placed these orders for so much ammunition nkt terribly long before the buying panick started? Almost like they knew something was about to happen that would cause a shortage. Now we have LE agencies who are saying the ammo and magazine run has caused them to run short as well. Why wouldn't DHS turn over some of the millions of rounds since they work with LE?

I don't tend to be a conspiracy guy but there seems to be more to them ordering so much at such a crucial time. Especially since some of it was supposedly for one of the weather services.
I am wondering if there is any info out there on if they had bought up a bunch of spare magazines or accessories as well...

I do believe the Feds order 1.4 BILLION rounds of ammo..........