John Roberts: Extortion is perfectly legal so long as it is packaged as a tax.

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  • IndyDave1776

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    While the recent decision that ObamaCare is legal is wrong as a number of different levels, including and especialy that there is not Constitutional authority whatsoever for anything of this nature (prevailing disregard of the Constitution notwithstanding). Following this comes the implications of such a huge power grab and government control over a huge sector of the economy, and of course the fact that this is going to exacerbate rather than mitigate the foundational problems which are supposedly the issue at hand.

    By far the most dangerous implications in my reckoning are the fact that we have just witnessed the Supreme Court with the deciding vote case by the supposedly conservative Roberts determine that ignoring the Constitution is legal, and that, perhaps even more ominous, it is perfectly acceptable for the government to engage in extortion so long as it is packaged as a tax. With the exception of protective tariffs, it has been understood and accepted throughout our history that taxes exist for the purpose of raising revenue with which to operate the government. Now we are venturing into territory in which we have never openly ventured before. We have tested the water with using taxes to modify behavior in form of actual taxes on tobacco which represent a major part of the final cost and proposed (but never enacted) taxes on such things as ammunition which would multiply the cost by generally around a factor of ten. The 1934 National Firearms Act places a $200 transfer tax on regulated weapons which was done clearly to prevent access to such devices although I don't recall that being openly admitted, coupled with the fact that, although this doesn't change the principle, at a practical level it affected a relatively small number of people. This is especially true when contrasted with a punitive tax serving as a vehicle of extortion against any and all who breath air.

    It would appear that the fact of the matter is very clear. The question which is more frightening yet is now that the Supreme Court has determined that state-sponsored extortion is legal, where does it end?
     
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    ATOMonkey

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    Looking at the other end of it.

    If you increase progressive income tax, and give a tax credit for purchasing health insurance, what is the difference?
     

    IndyDave1776

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    Looking at the other end of it.

    If you increase progressive income tax, and give a tax credit for purchasing health insurance, what is the difference?

    Aside from exploring the impossible twists in the tax code and the modifications to it by legislation such as this, regardless of how it is packaged it is just plain wrong. If punitive taxes are used to modify behavior that is well within our rights and more specifically not given to the federal government to demand of us one way or the other, it is extortion, no more and not less. The same applies to taking our money and 'refunding' it if we conform in ways that are not given to the government to demand. If teh money can be given back (i.e., there is no compelling need for the government to actually use it for purpose other than bribing/extorting us with our own money) it never should have been taken in the first place.
     

    indykid

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    Looking at the other end of it.

    If you increase progressive income tax, and give a tax credit for purchasing health insurance, what is the difference?

    I am retired. I live on a small pension and my savings/investments. I don't have enough income versus deductions to have a taxable income so there would be no tax credit for me to buy insurance that would make up for the fact that the mandated insurance would cost me enough to have to forgo eating for most of the month, assuming I wanted to remain self-sufficient in the soon to be former American dream of living in a house that I own (although I rent it from the state of Indiana).

    My retirement "plan" doesn't have health care as part of my retirement, and I have am self-insured for minor medical issues. If being self-insured meets the mandated minimum requirements of the new law, then I am ok, but if it doesn't, I will either be forced into figuring out how to pay for something I don't need.

    I remember my father telling me stories of a regime that we went to war against, that forced their people under threat of bad things to do what the government told them. The now dead leader of that country would be so proud to find out that we who defeated him were headed down the path where our own freedom is down the tube in the name of our own health and safety, and that like his government was, ours is becoming one that tells we the people what to do, and not as this country was founded on we the people telling the government what to do.

    No, a progressive income tax increase will not be offset by any tax refund, tax credit, tax rebate or call it what you want.
     

    churchmouse

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    We put our hopes in the hands and minds of those few in black robes. They are the over seer's of this land, it's Constitution and it's law's. As usual, We got "Hosed"
     

    El T

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    Shame on me. I haven't been paying attention to the news over the past couple of weeks. It really is scary what you miss out on....when you tune out.
     

    LEaSH

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    Shame on me. I haven't been paying attention to the news over the past couple of weeks. It really is scary what you miss out on....when you tune out.

    Personally, I envy you.

    I should tune out. I have no problem putting my head down and working to cover my own ass, at this point. I'm not going to feel a bit of shame after this election when I resign myself to simply tuning out.
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    Personally, I envy you.

    I should tune out. I have no problem putting my head down and working to cover my own ass, at this point. I'm not going to feel a bit of shame after this election when I resign myself to simply tuning out.

    If you tune out, you might miss the sound of the drums.
     

    inlineman

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    It is wrong to leave the health and welfare of the citizens in the hands of insurance companies that are only interested in PROFIT.GO OBAMA
     

    IndyDave1776

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    It is wrong to leave the health and welfare of the citizens in the hands of insurance companies that are only interested in PROFIT.GO OBAMA

    If you would invest a little time in research and then engage in some actual thought, as opposed to regurgitating Obama talking points, you would discover that the foundation of our health care problem is in fact insurance and its effect of creating an artificially high demand for services (i.e., before insurance people only went to the doctor when necessary, not every time they sneezed) which in turn led to an artificially high price for care which rose unabated so long as the profit margins were good, and now we have artificially unaffordable health care. This problem is exacerbated by regulations that interfere with free choice in dealing with one's own situation and a desperate need for tort reform. No, I do not believe malpractice should happen with impunity, but then again it is not cause to make a person's family independently wealthy for multiple generations--especially when the money comes indirectly out of my health care expenses.

    If government intervention is going to happen, it should be along the lines of the regulations applied to the railroads in the late 1800s which required advertised rates and forbade deviation from them either in form of special deals or rebates such that everyone had the same cost as opposed to a few being able to leverage really sweet deals while everyone else had inflated prices to make up the difference.

    Better would be creating the situation for insurance to be eliminated completely, in turn causing a hard market correction, and then people would be able to afford health care without any middlemen.

    Cheering as the federal government flagrantly disregards the Constitution and legalizes state-sponsored extortion in form of punitive taxes for noncompliance, often directed at those least able to afford to comply, is not the answer. Further, if you think this is such a great idea, you really should talk to some Britons. That said, the most important issue is that if you are willing to give up freedom to make your own choices in favor of the illusion of security, you sir do not deserve freedom.
     

    inlineman

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    I ddont like the idea of losing what I have worked my whole life for because of an inflated hospital bill.The insurance companies are not going away like in your dream so in my opinion this is the best answer,and for once someone is trying to lookout for the poor. I thought id never see it but im sure glad I voted for it.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    I ddont like the idea of losing what I have worked my whole life for because of an inflated hospital bill.The insurance companies are not going away like in your dream so in my opinion this is the best answer,and for once someone is trying to lookout for the poor. I thought id never see it but im sure glad I voted for it.

    I understand your point. When your activities are further controlled and your freedoms eliminated by the application of punitive taxes such that you may well not be able to afford to live your life as you choose without having everything you spent your life working for taken away by the government for noncompliance, don't say that you weren't warned and don't expect any sympathy.
     

    inlineman

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    I dont often pick up the newspaper and see a hospital or insurance company going bankrupt. I dont want or need sympathy just decent healthcare.
     

    netsecurity

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    Looking at the other end of it.

    If you increase progressive income tax, and give a tax credit for purchasing health insurance, what is the difference?

    Haha, the only reason Obama won't do that is because raising taxes will get him fired. I'd rather a tax increase, and get it over with, but not to fund a bird brained liberal agenda--I want something made using common sense, something that DOESN'T NEED TO BE DISGUISED.

    Limbaugh says that liberals always have to use different words to explain themselves, because if they told the raw truth behind their plans, everyone would hate them. This is one of those times, and I see it happen daily on all issues. They use forked tongue lies, double-speak, and all manner of deception to hide their real plans. Liberals never want their true agenda exposed to the public, which is why I know they are pure evil, and they are traitors, and against liberty. It is one thing to have to tolerate the existence of these dirty snakes, it is much worse to be ruled by them.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    I dont often pick up the newspaper and see a hospital or insurance company going bankrupt. I dont want or need sympathy just decent healthcare.

    You just completely dodged my point. The ruling crafted by Roberts turns on the notion that an individual mandate is not legal per se but it is legal to use punitive taxation to extort compliance. With this precedent the foundation is set to use punitive taxation to extort you into doing anything the government may see fit to demand that you do enforced with onerous tax burdens if you don't. You are cheering for a ruling that stands to end your days of being a free citizen of the republic. It reminds me of a story about a certain individual who sold his birthright for a meal.
     

    inlineman

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    That is not extortion,extortion is what the insurance companies do to us on a daily basis.plus they make us pay for it in the form of a premium.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    That is not extortion,extortion is what the insurance companies do to us on a daily basis.plus they make us pay for it in the form of a premium.

    Penalizing you (potentially at ruinous cost in future incarnations) for not doing something that the same decision determine you cannot be mandated to do is not extortion? I would love to know how you came to that conclusion. I will also say that the mob is full of people would would love to have you on the jury when they get tried.
     
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