redneckpastor
Sharpshooter
- Sep 20, 2009
- 389
- 16
I quote Gabe Suarez here in an article that i found extremely helpful in all that jazz about more knock down and this and that.
Gabe Suarez
One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries
Magazine Capacity
I suppose this will be yet another highly controversial issue, but
what the heck. Controversy makes for interesting discussion, no? The
issue is to look at whether high magazine capacity gives you a
tactical advantage, or if we are better served by carrying an equally
sized weapon with a smaller capacity of bigger bullets. Before I
answer my own question, let me put forth some facts as seen both in
force on force training and on the street.
Point One - Pistol bullets, regardless of caliber are all, what one
colleague calls, "iffy". None can be guaranteed to drop an adversary
in his tracks reliably. The notion of a one shot stop is an urban
myth dreamed up by those with a vested interest in such things. I
have seen 45s work and fail, and I have seen 9mm both work and fail.
For the record, the only one shot drop (excluding head shots) I have
ever seen with a pistol was fired by a good friend as we entered a
crack house during a SWAT raid. He shot the bad guy squarely in the
heart with 9mm +P+ out of a SIG P-226. He only fired once because the
bad guy fell before my friend could reset his trigger for the next
shot!
If we look at the most prevalent calibers we see that there is very
little difference between them. A 9mm (also .38/.357) is only one
little millimeter smaller than the 10mm (aka .40 S&W), and that is
only one little millimeter less than the vaunted 11mm (aka .45 ACP).
And before we get into the high speed light bullet versus the heavy
slow bullet argument, lets remember that you can only drive a pistol
bullet so fast without drastically affecting its integrity. Moreover,
since penetration is affected by weight, sacrificing weight for speed
will not yield good results. Finally, you can only make a bullet so
light or so heavy. There are limits to what you can shoot out of a
pistol.
I have seen every one of these calibers fail at one time or another.
There are those who disdain the 9mm as unsuitable for anything larger
than squirrels. With modern ammunition, this is simply not true.
There is also a myth and a cult grown up around the .45 ACP in this
country. Sadly, it is not the deadly hammer of god its proponents
suggest. This is not new. Read Fairbairn's Shoot To Live. He
writes of two separate times when the .45 failed to work any better
than anything else. Although one millimeter may give you a slight
edge in a less than optimum body hit, under most circumstances, there
will be very little difference between the effectiveness of the
various calibers when modern anti-personnel ammo is used. Trauma
injury doctors and reputable terminal ballistics experts tend to agree
with this statement.
Point Two - Private Citizen CCW Operators do not go looking for
trouble. If they are called to fight it is either because they have
inadvertently crossed paths with bad guys while they are doing bad
guy stuff (walking in on a robbery in progress as an example), or
because they have been specifically targeted and stalked (such as a
carjack, or home invasion event). They will have to use extreme
violence to fight off the surprise attackers. When we translate the
conversion of fright and startle into a firearm application we wee
that definition is high volume of fire. You will shoot a lot, and
until the threat is no longer there.
While these events share slightly different dynamics, the common
thread often seen is that of multiple adversaries. The lone criminal
or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one,
consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.
Another point is the time frames in which these events take place.
Think three seconds. After this, either you will be dead, or your
adversaries will be dead. Urban gunfights do not go for hours.
Unexpected, short duration, high intensity, extreme violence, multiple
adversaries. That is the back drop.
Point Three - Our staff has collectively been in a large number of
gunfights ranging from police, citizen, and military events. We draw
on those experiences to set up mock gunfights in dynamic, unscripted
force on force training drills. Although the surprise factor is
missing (you generally don t know you will be in a gunfight until it
is upon you), the dynamics of its evolution do not change much. Here
are some other observations from watching hundreds of those drills.
1). Defenders will fire their weapons until the threat disappears.
That means that until the role player falls down (simulating effective
hits delivered), or runs away (removing the target), the good guy will
keep firing. The concept of school solutions, controlled pairs, or
otherwise artificially limiting the number of shots (as one does in a
firing string on the range) does not hold up even in guys who've been
extensively trained to do it.
2). When a training gun stops firing (due to running out of pellets),
the shooter is still in the fight and still trying to shoot his enemy
as well as trying to not be hit by him. We see them continue to try
to work the trigger for one or two times before there is a realization
that there has been a stoppage (malfunction or empty gun). This is
followed by a visual examination of the gun, and only then is remedial
action taken.
This can take upwards f a second and a half before anything is even
attempted to fix the gun, and then the additional time needed to
reload. Thus the idea that one can read the gun s feel and
immediately realize a need to speed load simply does not hold up.
Running out of ammo is usually a fight ender if there has been a
failure to stop, or there are multiple adversaries at hand.
3). Participants in these reactive mock gunfights are debriefed
immediately to get a clear picture of what happened before any
rationalization takes place. Besides a shoot them to the ground
firing process, most shooters do not remember seeing the crystal clear
sight pictures they learned on the shooting range.
We see a great deal of point shooting, and gun index shooting. I have
yet to see anyone strike a classic shooting posture and press off a
carefully sighted pair in these room distance drills.
The point to remember is that in a fight such as what are likely for
the private citizen, one can easily develop Bullet Deficit Disorder ,
and that this can have deleterious effects on the outcome of that
fight.
The idea that a pair or trio of quality rounds carefully delivered
onto a high scoring target zone will stop the action fails both the
terminal ballistics test as well as the applications test.
A truth of gunfighting - Having more ammo immediately on board lessens
the likelihood of ever needing to reload. Not needing to reload
translates into more time delivering lead and less time manipulating
the weapon. More trigger time increases likelihood of hitting, which
increases survivability.
So the question is this. Given that there is a limit to the size
pistol one can carry, do I want that pistol to hold more rounds? My
answer is a strong YES!
Consider the similarly sized Glock 36 in .45 ACP, and the Glock 23 in
.40 S&W. The latter holds nearly twice the ammo of the former in an
almost identical package. The Glock 19 is an even more drastic
comparison with 15 shots available. Of course there are also high
capacity 45 pistols for those so inclined and for those who can wield
them. I would argue that if your choice is a 45, a gun holding 13
would be better than a gun holding 6. And if your hand is too small
for the 13 shooter, rather than decrease capacity, I d decrease
caliber.
I have a colleague is South America who has been in High Risk Police
Service for close to three decades. He has been in over three dozen
verified gunfight . His weapon was originally a Browning Hi-Power
and later a Glock 17.
I was very interested in hearing more so I asked him about the load he
used. He said he had always used military ball full metal jacket.
Astounded I asked him why he chose that. That is all we can get
here. Hollow points are illegal .
I shook my head and told him that there was a belief in the USA that
9mm was an anemic caliber, especially in the load he d chosen. He
shrugged and said that his adversaries must not have gotten the word.
He said he fired a burst at the chest and if they didn't fall fast
enough, he fired a burst at the face. He never needed to reload and
had enough on board so if he missed a shot or two he could catch up
in the fight. And before we hear the careful shooter versus the
spraying prayer, this man is one of the best shots I have seen and
competes on an international level. Even so, he knows the chaos in a
gunfight can play havoc with even the most gifted marksman. Perhaps
we need to take a lesson from him.
I still carry a Glock 17 with 17 rounds of Corbon DPX ammo in 9mm.
Gabe Suarez
One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries
Gabe Suarez
One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries
Magazine Capacity
I suppose this will be yet another highly controversial issue, but
what the heck. Controversy makes for interesting discussion, no? The
issue is to look at whether high magazine capacity gives you a
tactical advantage, or if we are better served by carrying an equally
sized weapon with a smaller capacity of bigger bullets. Before I
answer my own question, let me put forth some facts as seen both in
force on force training and on the street.
Point One - Pistol bullets, regardless of caliber are all, what one
colleague calls, "iffy". None can be guaranteed to drop an adversary
in his tracks reliably. The notion of a one shot stop is an urban
myth dreamed up by those with a vested interest in such things. I
have seen 45s work and fail, and I have seen 9mm both work and fail.
For the record, the only one shot drop (excluding head shots) I have
ever seen with a pistol was fired by a good friend as we entered a
crack house during a SWAT raid. He shot the bad guy squarely in the
heart with 9mm +P+ out of a SIG P-226. He only fired once because the
bad guy fell before my friend could reset his trigger for the next
shot!
If we look at the most prevalent calibers we see that there is very
little difference between them. A 9mm (also .38/.357) is only one
little millimeter smaller than the 10mm (aka .40 S&W), and that is
only one little millimeter less than the vaunted 11mm (aka .45 ACP).
And before we get into the high speed light bullet versus the heavy
slow bullet argument, lets remember that you can only drive a pistol
bullet so fast without drastically affecting its integrity. Moreover,
since penetration is affected by weight, sacrificing weight for speed
will not yield good results. Finally, you can only make a bullet so
light or so heavy. There are limits to what you can shoot out of a
pistol.
I have seen every one of these calibers fail at one time or another.
There are those who disdain the 9mm as unsuitable for anything larger
than squirrels. With modern ammunition, this is simply not true.
There is also a myth and a cult grown up around the .45 ACP in this
country. Sadly, it is not the deadly hammer of god its proponents
suggest. This is not new. Read Fairbairn's Shoot To Live. He
writes of two separate times when the .45 failed to work any better
than anything else. Although one millimeter may give you a slight
edge in a less than optimum body hit, under most circumstances, there
will be very little difference between the effectiveness of the
various calibers when modern anti-personnel ammo is used. Trauma
injury doctors and reputable terminal ballistics experts tend to agree
with this statement.
Point Two - Private Citizen CCW Operators do not go looking for
trouble. If they are called to fight it is either because they have
inadvertently crossed paths with bad guys while they are doing bad
guy stuff (walking in on a robbery in progress as an example), or
because they have been specifically targeted and stalked (such as a
carjack, or home invasion event). They will have to use extreme
violence to fight off the surprise attackers. When we translate the
conversion of fright and startle into a firearm application we wee
that definition is high volume of fire. You will shoot a lot, and
until the threat is no longer there.
While these events share slightly different dynamics, the common
thread often seen is that of multiple adversaries. The lone criminal
or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one,
consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.
Another point is the time frames in which these events take place.
Think three seconds. After this, either you will be dead, or your
adversaries will be dead. Urban gunfights do not go for hours.
Unexpected, short duration, high intensity, extreme violence, multiple
adversaries. That is the back drop.
Point Three - Our staff has collectively been in a large number of
gunfights ranging from police, citizen, and military events. We draw
on those experiences to set up mock gunfights in dynamic, unscripted
force on force training drills. Although the surprise factor is
missing (you generally don t know you will be in a gunfight until it
is upon you), the dynamics of its evolution do not change much. Here
are some other observations from watching hundreds of those drills.
1). Defenders will fire their weapons until the threat disappears.
That means that until the role player falls down (simulating effective
hits delivered), or runs away (removing the target), the good guy will
keep firing. The concept of school solutions, controlled pairs, or
otherwise artificially limiting the number of shots (as one does in a
firing string on the range) does not hold up even in guys who've been
extensively trained to do it.
2). When a training gun stops firing (due to running out of pellets),
the shooter is still in the fight and still trying to shoot his enemy
as well as trying to not be hit by him. We see them continue to try
to work the trigger for one or two times before there is a realization
that there has been a stoppage (malfunction or empty gun). This is
followed by a visual examination of the gun, and only then is remedial
action taken.
This can take upwards f a second and a half before anything is even
attempted to fix the gun, and then the additional time needed to
reload. Thus the idea that one can read the gun s feel and
immediately realize a need to speed load simply does not hold up.
Running out of ammo is usually a fight ender if there has been a
failure to stop, or there are multiple adversaries at hand.
3). Participants in these reactive mock gunfights are debriefed
immediately to get a clear picture of what happened before any
rationalization takes place. Besides a shoot them to the ground
firing process, most shooters do not remember seeing the crystal clear
sight pictures they learned on the shooting range.
We see a great deal of point shooting, and gun index shooting. I have
yet to see anyone strike a classic shooting posture and press off a
carefully sighted pair in these room distance drills.
The point to remember is that in a fight such as what are likely for
the private citizen, one can easily develop Bullet Deficit Disorder ,
and that this can have deleterious effects on the outcome of that
fight.
The idea that a pair or trio of quality rounds carefully delivered
onto a high scoring target zone will stop the action fails both the
terminal ballistics test as well as the applications test.
A truth of gunfighting - Having more ammo immediately on board lessens
the likelihood of ever needing to reload. Not needing to reload
translates into more time delivering lead and less time manipulating
the weapon. More trigger time increases likelihood of hitting, which
increases survivability.
So the question is this. Given that there is a limit to the size
pistol one can carry, do I want that pistol to hold more rounds? My
answer is a strong YES!
Consider the similarly sized Glock 36 in .45 ACP, and the Glock 23 in
.40 S&W. The latter holds nearly twice the ammo of the former in an
almost identical package. The Glock 19 is an even more drastic
comparison with 15 shots available. Of course there are also high
capacity 45 pistols for those so inclined and for those who can wield
them. I would argue that if your choice is a 45, a gun holding 13
would be better than a gun holding 6. And if your hand is too small
for the 13 shooter, rather than decrease capacity, I d decrease
caliber.
I have a colleague is South America who has been in High Risk Police
Service for close to three decades. He has been in over three dozen
verified gunfight . His weapon was originally a Browning Hi-Power
and later a Glock 17.
I was very interested in hearing more so I asked him about the load he
used. He said he had always used military ball full metal jacket.
Astounded I asked him why he chose that. That is all we can get
here. Hollow points are illegal .
I shook my head and told him that there was a belief in the USA that
9mm was an anemic caliber, especially in the load he d chosen. He
shrugged and said that his adversaries must not have gotten the word.
He said he fired a burst at the chest and if they didn't fall fast
enough, he fired a burst at the face. He never needed to reload and
had enough on board so if he missed a shot or two he could catch up
in the fight. And before we hear the careful shooter versus the
spraying prayer, this man is one of the best shots I have seen and
competes on an international level. Even so, he knows the chaos in a
gunfight can play havoc with even the most gifted marksman. Perhaps
we need to take a lesson from him.
I still carry a Glock 17 with 17 rounds of Corbon DPX ammo in 9mm.
Gabe Suarez
One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA
Christian Warrior Ministries