Islam- What the West Needs to Know

[Cwood]

I am glad you see differences between the Muslims here. However, you still equate all deepening of faith and heading towards Jihad. Sure, there is a tendency among all religions for the converts and newly awakened to head towards more extreme, but how does this differ from Christians who decide to move into bombing abortion clinics. How is this specific to Muslims?

As always, I respect your posts and insight on things. The quote above is the only thing that I have to disagree with you on.

There are many more Muslims that will participate in jihad and bomb then there is Christians that will bomb abortion clinics.

Not quiet sure that is the correct analogy. Where a Christian fanatic will bomb an abortion clinic it is just one moral belief. The Muslim jihadist only needs them to be non-muslim and no other reason.

 

[techres]

As always, I respect your posts and insight on things. The quote above is the only thing that I have to disagree with you on.

There are many more Muslims that will participate in jihad and bomb then there is Christians that will bomb abortion clinics.

Not quiet sure that is the correct analogy. Where a Christian fanatic will bomb an abortion clinic it is just one moral belief. The Muslim jihadist only needs them to be non-muslim and no other reason.

Ok a different analogy then, Baruch Goldstein and Israeli Doctor who went fanatic, borrowed an M16 from a solder, walked into a Mosque and unloaded 2 mags into the worshippers backs until the crowd was able to overpower him and beat him to death. His burial site is a shrine for extreme right Jews in Israel. He did not pic very specifically at all...

Do Muslims have the numbers on fanatic bombers? Yep. They also have the numbers on oppressive governments, poverty, illiteracy, lack of civil society, with the only abundance being the oil that props it all up.

Did the Irish used to corner the market on bombings? Yep. Did an end to Irish Catholicism fix that? Nope. A change in government, poverty, education, and representation did that. There was no direct link between religion and bombs.

Muslims are killing muslims. They are also killing non-Muslims. I would bet money that far, far more Muslims are killed by Muslims than are non-Muslims. It is not too far from here in America with the vast majority of black crime is black on black, but some focus only on the black on white events and see it as a concerted plan. (NO, I AM NOT CALLING HALDIR A RACIST - DO NOT READ THAT INTO MY COMMENTS PLEASE)

Again, this is not about Islam in any other way than Muslims who have not moved up into a secular modern society need to do so. The same holds for Christians from Kenya, Jews from Safed, or Hindu's from India. Law is above religious law even if the latter informs the former.

So, yeah, religion and looniness can go together, but that is not unique to Islam.

 

[Beau]

I really want to weigh in on this but I do not feel that I am edjamacated on this subject to do so. So I won't but I will thank techres and Bill of Rights for giving me some more things to consider.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Yes I have noticed that you and BOR both respond negatively to my posts at times. No it doesn't surprise me just because you are Jews. Polls show that American Jews have views that run strongly counter to those that might expected based upon the views of Israelis. They are distinct groups with distinct interests and views.

So in this particular instance is it merely posting the link to this documentary that you find offensive or was it something in my comments? I thought I was fairly restrained in those comments. Could you point out specifically what you found offensive. I understand that I am here at the mod's discretion. If I am violating some rule of conduct, I certainly want to avoid doing so again.

Haldir, it is not that I respond negatively to your posts. It is that I respond negatively to prejudice and more to negative actions taken as a result of those prejudices. Now... we all have prejudices... some good, some bad, some neither. It can be as innocuous as picking all the red jellybeans out of the bowl because you like strawberry: You've judged that they're strawberry (or maybe cherry?) because of their color. It is only after you have them all in your hand that you find out they are cinnamon. Oops. No harm done except that the guy who likes cinnamon jelly beans now won't have any. I'll echo Techres' comment that what I'm saying here is not as a mod but as a person, an INGO member. I object not to Haldir's posts but to the idea that "Muslims are bad, mmmkay?" Some may be. So are some Christians. So are some Jews. Their religious belief is as irrelevant as their hair or eye color. They're bad people because of their actions.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Wesley929]

I am a very "Culturally Intolerant" person. I know this and am working on it. If I offend anyone I apologize.

I don't see the difference between an "Islamic fundamentalist" and Muslims who practice "peacful islam" being any greater than the difference between the Christian who goes to church daily and devotes every action in his entire life to living by the book ( I've been known to use the term "Bible Thumpers") and the CEO Christians (Christmas and Easter Only) that you wouldn't even know were religious.

That being said we're not at war with "Bible Thumping" Christians we are at war with Terrorists who some of which claim to be of the Islamic faith. Although I do recognize a difference, Christians have done things in the name of Christianity that are just as wrong as the Islamic Terrorist actions in the name of Islam.

I've been called a racist more than a few times though I do not believe I am. I think "Culturally Intolerant" is a better fit. I'm openly intolerant of a car with more money into the stereo or rims than the car is worth, or if a person has to hold up their pants constantly while walking so they don't fall down, or if someone holds their pistol sideways while shooting, or the people that believe "everything happens for a reason" while completely ignoring "Free Will" and not taking responsibility for their woes when they are a direct result of their own choices. If I can tell a person is a "flaming" homosexual from 50 ft away that really bugs me too. Yet I have some gay friends that you wouldn't know were gay if they didn't tell you and I have no problem with that whatsoever. None of these behaviors I'm intolerant about have anything to do with race or any other group of people in its entirety. They are just things that really bug me for reasons unknown even to myself at times.

I try to give every person a fair first impression which is sometimes easier said than done. I believe each individual deserves at least that much. I don't dislike any entire group of people based on the actions of a few and I don't think we should treat Muslims as a group any differently. I am culturally intolerant of Radical Islamic Fundamentalist actions, but until we give each and every Muslim a fair first impression we should not be discriminatory towards Muslims as a whole.

If you find yourself making first impressions hastily or not on the merits of the individual but on the actions of a few or stereotypes, I urge you refrain from doing so. At the least attempt to give everyone the fair first impression they deserve.

 

[haldir]

Interesting that both of you turn the discussion to prejudice and racism while quickly adding it isn't a direct reference to me. I think I get the picture.

 

[Phil502]

I suppose I get tired of hearing about the religion of "Peace" while I see a video of some guy getting his head sawed off in the name of Allah. I guess I get tired of watching European countries go under as Muslims riot and burn in the name of "their" rights. I guess I get tired of wondering when people are going to wake up and realize it can happen anywhere if people don't recognize the fact that it can happen and stop listening to the political BS instead.

Are all Muslims "bad", of course not. One thing though, to be truly Muslim takes a lot of effort. Daily multiple prayers, no non Hallal meat, fasting during the day for 1 month, at least one trip to Mecca/Haj in a lifetime. That kind of dedication concerns me because if stirred up it can easily lead to big trouble, the amount of non-Muslims that suffer in their oppressive countries sets a precedent. Muslims also have views on what they consider the shortcomings of other religions, they have very contrary views about Jesus, Mary, the death of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Immaculate Conception, among others, yet they allow NO criticism of their own religion, to the point of mob violence and utter exclusion of all others.

I happen to be very lucky to have a good friend who is Muslim, we worked together for 8 years, in fact he was one of my bosses. I still have to wonder if we are good enough friends that he would hide me in his attic if need be, I would him but I am not as devout as he is in my religious practices.

 

[CarmelHP]

To the apologists of Islam, repeated surveys in Muslim countries has shown that it's not 1-10 million Muslims that are a problem, it's more like 300-700 million. Not all, certainly, but such a large proportion of the population that all warrant a little more than average scrutiny to separate out the jihadis.

 

[Wesley929]

I am not a "apologist of Islam" and did not imply Haldir is a racist

Interesting that both of you turn the discussion to prejudice and racism while quickly adding it isn't a direct reference to me. I think I get the picture.

I in no way intended or inferred that your (Haldir) posts were racist or prejudice. Even if you hated all muslims I would not label you a racist since the Muslim faith spans all races and is not a race in and of itself. I won't even imply that you are prejudice. If you hated or disliked all Muslims just because they are Muslim then I would but I do not believe you think this way. I believe you are concerned about a potential danger to our country and there have been events that lend credit to your concern.

Simply put an atheist, christian, buddist, jew, daoist, or hindu would not kill in the name of Islam. So narrowing down your concern to Muslims in general is acceptable. You never said all muslims are Jihadist, or that all muslims should be deported. You gave reasonings for all of your thoughts. You stated you thought some were here to live out the American dream.

I had started typing prior to BOR's post posting so we were not able to read eachothers before posting. Our posts posting at similar times and both mentioning racism was a coincidence at most. My post was just simply how I personally approach the subject of dealing with Muslims and Islam. I referenced my own personal instances of being called a racist and proclaimed myself to be "Culturally Intolerant".

Giving everyone a fair first impression is easier said than done. People can't help but have pre determined thoughts about a person based on stereotypes. I'm simply saying we should try not to, and "innocent until proven guilty" should be applied to any action under the law. That said I believe an openly self proclaimed Muslim Jihadist US citizen deserves all the rights provided under the Constitution of the United States. Just as a Racist has every right to "THINK" all members of a race should be hanged, and a "Culturally Intolerant" person has the right to think people who shoot their "9 milly" sideways should be pistol whipped, A Muslim jihadist has every right to think all non believers should be killed. Its the actions of these individuals that are on trial under the law not their thoughts. It is extremely difficult and maybe impossible to know who will act on these thoughts and who will not. Someones choice to be Muslim should not be grounds for tighter government scrutiny.

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

I am curious, how many American Muslims have you met Haldir? Personally met?

I've met more than two dozen, myself.

One Iranian, and several Saudis at college, as well as a Saudi roommate. The Saudi roommate was personally the most enraging roommate I've ever had. He would bring "friends" in at all hours of the night into our crowded dorm room... friends who would glare at me - they never spoke English to me save my roommate, whose goal was "to speak English [so] perfect that no one will question [it]..." I asked as to their majors, and each and every one of them was there for electrical engineering. Electrical engineering. I'll repeat that: none of them save my roommate could speak English well enough to even ask where the bathroom was, and they were here, in Evansville, Indiana, shipped directly from Saudi Arabia - where Wahhabism, an extremely strict sect of Islam, reigns - to learn electrical engineering.

Let that sink in for a few moments.

My roommate prayed five times a day on a special mat with embroidered details in Arabic always facing Mecca and he still did not consider himself devout - surely he would have found anything short of blowing people up as non-devout. He posted a "soccer flag" on his side of the wall which had the Islamic crescent and star, soccer ball, and the numbers, in each respective corner, "9, 11, 10, 20". I took a snapshot and posted the picture online asking for a translation of the Arabic. No one seemed willing to translate it for me. Whenever I was watching television during his prayers, he would often try to shut my television off. I did not take kindly to this, and eventually he and I reached a compromise in that I would, begrudgingly, turn down the television. He told me, personally, on many occasions, that gays should be killed. Atheists should be killed. Women who do not obey their husbands to the letter of their edicts should be killed - he made this quite plain, and despite occasionally not having mastered the past verb tense, leaving off the '-ed' suffix, he made this quite clear over the course of nine months. He lives - or at least, lived - in Jeddah, a moderately-sized city to the Southwest of the peninsula which is Saudi Arabia. He lived in what I can call with no uncertainty of exaggeration to be a dwelling which any of us might consider palatial, a true palace. His mother had a driver, for women were not - and if I am not mistaken, still are not - allowed to drive. His English, while not by any means perfect, was decent enough that I could understand haps maybe 9 of ten words spoken, even if misspoken (for instance, he once said that he went to McDonald's and ordered a "Fries and C**k".) Despite being occasionally amusing, he bugged me repeatedly as to what a particular word in a text would mean. He was very intent on learning English - fluently, despite his often bad grades in class. Needless to say, I found all of this quite irregular and reported it to my Resident Assistant on no fewer than two occasions - and after being told to relax, I went over his head to my Resident Coordinator - who told me that if I bothered him with this information again, I would need to sit through a diversity module - basically sitting down at a computer and watching a video and answering questions relating to diversity. I'm not a hatemonger - I'm okay with the amount of melanin in someone's skin - I'm not okay with five people talking behind me in a foreign tongue whilst casting glares to my back - it got to the point where I would pick my teeth with my switchblade whilst they were in the room, just in case. While my roommate was never openly hostile, I never had a feeling of security with him, and asked to be transferred twice - to no avail. He would stare at scantily-clad co-eds outside our window with little more than pure contempt and loathing - maybe some lust, but mostly disgust. I saw it in his eyes, several times.

To this day, I don't know why I didn't report the whole bunch to DHS, excepting of course that they were important Saudis whom the university had an exchange program with - the only difference being that Saudis here didn't need armed guard - and I asked one of my colleagues abroad in Saudi Arabia: the American students there had armed guards with automatics constantly stationed outside his dorm.

I slept with "one eye open" as they say, and went to sleep always after I was sure that he had gone to bed. I am surprised that I was not subject to violence, but looking back I realize how safe I was - these guys had far more planned than any beating of a college student. To this day, I'm not sure where they are, whether they've gone back to Saudi Arabia as my roommate claimed he planned on doing. I have no idea, I am ashamed to say, as to where these guys went after graduation. But to let you know, no, I firmly feel that these guys were and perhaps are up to no good yet.

What made me feel even more upset than having strange, hateful guys speaking a foreign tongue three feet from me was the response from the Administration - no one said 'Hey, yeah, we'll keep in touch' or 'Thanks for letting us know...' It was always an attitude of 'Go away, you're bothering me with information.' This wasn't but two years ago, long after the tragedies of 9/11 - and still not one person I talked to save my friends ever took any interest in the fact that more than two dozen Saudis were shipped here to the heart of America to learn electrical engineering. But I remain witness to the fact that it happened. The problem is much more severe than anyone realizes, I think.

It wasn't long after I graduated that I really understood what had happened here. We don't need to worry about terrorism, guys - we're DOING IT FOR THEM. We're giving them the tools they need to destroy us. Call me paranoid, or hate-mongering - whatever moniker you wish to ascribe - but this whole thing gave me pause enough to buy my first piece in June following, a Glock 17. (I'd been shooting at 14, but hadn't done much at all since then.) We as a nation are preparing our own noose and burial shroud through our continued denial of reality: Islam is violent, pure and simple - concede enough to these people - who, make no mistake, are rooting for nothing less than our absolute destruction and our cessation of "mockery" of their 'god' and 'his word' - and they will hang us all with the rope we have given them.

For fear of retribution, I have not listed the name of the college, but to anyone astute enough, there are two colleges here which have capacity to house students.

Anyhow, this has been my experience with Islam, up-close and firsthand. I'd be happy to answer any non-identifying questions or comments, if anyone has any.

I hope that we still have courage enough to elect leaders with enough :bigballs: to never lose sight of both the golden rule - to treat others as we should like to be treated - but also the maxim of the Marines - to be courteous, but also to have a plan to kill everyone we meet.

I do NOT condone pre-emptive violence toward civilians; muslims included. Period, full stop. Nor do I condone letting supremely suspicious behavior go unnoticed, unremarked, and uninvestigated.

 

[rambone]

I found this interesting.

13 Types of Muslims

1) Suicide Bombers : These are the most dangerous type of Muslims , they are willing to die in order to take lives of innocent non muslims.They are filled with deep hatred to massacre non muslims and are willing to go to any extent to do it.
Examples : Sept 11 Hijackers Mohammad Atta & Company, 7/7 Bombers , Daily Suicide attacks in Israel by Hamas , Islamic Jihad ,etc.

2) Suicidal Terrorists / Hostage Takers : These are those muslims who are not going for suicide bombings , but they are not afraid of death as well. These are mostly the Hostage takers , they know that there chance of survival is 50% / 50% . They take hostages and threaten them to kill if the demands are not met. They are so ruthless that they murder the hostages by slaughtering them like goats in front of Video Cameras to frighten the non muslims. ( Slaughter of Nick Berg , Paul Johnson, Ken Bigley , Nepali Cooks in Iraq by Abu Musaab Al Jarqavi.)
Examples: Hostage Takers of Beslan , Hostage Takes of Entebbe , Hostage takers of Brother Gilad Shalit,etc.

3) Terrorists ( But not suicidal) : These form the majority of Terrorists , they are well trained in handling Explosives , Bobm making , Sniping ,etc. They plant bombs , they carry on with snipe shooting , they do poisoning , they fire kassams ,etc.
Examples : Yesterday's Serial Blasts of Mumbai murdering 174 innocents and wounding over 500 people in India , World Trade Center Terror plot by Ramzi Yusuf , Anthrax scare , Sniper shootings by John Allen Mohammad in Washington DC, Bali Bombings , etc.

4) Active collaborators : These type of Muslims are not the terrorists themselves , but they actively collaborate and cooperate with Terrorists who are involved in Bombings or Suicide Mission.They provide Logistics , Shelter / Cover , Transport , Ammunition , hardware , information , reconaissance ,etc. They pose as normal citizens busy in their routine lives , infact aiding actively to these mass murderers. They form a significant amount of Muslims .
Examples: Majority of Suicide Bombings in Israel are carried out by the help of Israeli Muslim Arabs who are having Israeli Passports and all the rights which Jewisg Israelis have ( Except Israelis go to army and defend Israel and on the other hand , Israeli arabs claim all the benefits and breed like rats to control Israel demographically.)., Plan of Poisoning Rosh Ha Shanah Dinners in Beit Rimon Caffe in Jerusalem by an Israeli arab Chef , Blasts in Jerusalem University was done by Hamas Terrorists helped by Arab Employees of University ,etc.

5) Supporters of Terrorism : These Muslims are the most vocal supporters of Islamic Terrorism , they hold open rallies in London , Nazareth , etc , holding playcards supporting Terrorism. They openly advocate JIhad and spread propaganda in support of Jihad . These are like opinion makers in favour of jihad.
Examples: You can see CAIR , Muslim Student Organisations like WAMY , Muslims Groups in Universities, Faithful in Londons Finsbury Park Mosque ,etc.

6) Financiers of Terrorism : These are those muslims who finance terrorism and give millions of dollars to wage a Jihad and Islamise the Non Muslim Countries.
Examples : Rich Sheikhs of Oil Rich Gulf Countries , Rich Ex patriate Muslims , Islamic Charities and Muslims giving alms or Zakat in every mosque in World.On every friday muslims donate for Zakat or Charity wgich is fifth pillar of Islam and major portion of this money goes to Islamic Militants around the world.

7) Ideological Leaders : These are muslims which interpret Islam in the its real that is most cruel & voilent form , they often issue Fatwas . These are Ayatullahs , Al Sadrs , Head Imams ,etc.
Examples : Muslim Leaders of Al Azhar Mosque in Egypt , Abu Hamza in UK , Mohammad Bakri in UK , Al Zavahiri of Al Qaida , Maulana Masood Azhar of Jaish E Mohammad , Abu Bakar basayir of Jemah El Islamiyah , Preachers of Salafism , Devbandi Islamists of India , Maulana Sami Ul Haq of Islamic Madrassa om Pakistan ,etc.

8) Hate Mongers : These are those muslims who are involved in teaching and preaching Islam in Islamic Seminaries / Madrassas around the World , In their Curriculum , D stands for Dar Ul Harb , M stands for Mujahideen , K stands for Kaffir , and J stands for Jihad. Due to this education in 10 years we will witness whole generation of Suicide Bombers .
Examples : Islamic Seminaries or Madrassas , Islamic Cultural Centres , Dava Organisations , Majority of PA Owned schools in Gaza and West Bank.

9) Tech Savy Muslims : These are those muslims who are modern in appearance but Jihadis in their hearts. They take western education and do learn from western means , They make full use of Western Books , Material , Hardware , Weapons , Internet to wage a hidden Jihad.
Example : Dr. A. Q . Khan of Pakistan : He stole Nuclear Technology from West and successfully made first "Islamic Bomb" ,
Sept 11 Hijackers : They studied in west , They learn flight skills in American Schools and Hijacked Amrican Planes to Hit American Targets.
Pakistani Hackers Club : These are the group of Muslim hackers which hacks Non Muslim websites, posts inflamattory material , they issue internet threats , They make & Moderate Islamic Websites , Make Osama's Videos , Post Slaughter videos , etc.
Recent Moroccan Muslim Hackers hacked a number of Israeli websites .
Al Jazira TV Channel : Most Jounalists of Al Jazira support Militant Islam and their biased relays of programs from Islam point of View are fanning Hatred . Other Channels : PTV , QTV , etc.

10) Fifth Column Muslims : These are those muslims who are living in Non Muslim Countries or have entered non muslim countries by infiltration, they are engaged in espionage activities , thefts , crimes , rapes , and other anti national activities . These are those muslims who live in the Non muslim countries , but their hearts and souls are with Militant Islam , they demonstrate it as soon as they get chance to do so.
Examples : Recent Muslim Riots in France by Algerian / Moroccans / Tunicians which resulted in arson in 300 towns and torching of 16,000 french vehicles.
They are almost in all non muslim countries and are growing their populations by all means and trying to impose Islam by demanding Sharia , Islamic Laws , Halad Meat , Head Scarves ,etc ., They dream to take over their host countries by demographic Invasion.

11) Muslim Intellectuals : These are the Muslim Intellectuals who always claim " Islam means Peace " , " Muslims are peace loving" , "Terrorists are the small minority" , " Terrorism has nothing to do with Islam".
These sort of muslims are using muslim concept of " Taqqiya" to fool majority of Gullible Non Muslims , they keep on assuring non muslims that " Islam is peace " . Their duty is to buy time while remaining Muslim is ready to takeover the Whole Civilised World.
Examples : Major English Speaking and Media Savy Muslim Community Leaders.

12) Supporters / Sympathizers of Militant Islam : Remaining All Muslims fall in this category. They sympathize with the cause of Jihadis , they support Osama Bin Laden , etc. From them , the Miltant Islam gets supports.
Examples : Million Muslims marching in Karachi with Playcards of Osama Bin Laden, Thousands of Muslims buring Israeli flags during Former Israeli PM Mr.Sharon's visit to India, Muslims marching against the mohammads cartoons in Danish Newspapers.

13) Peace Loving Muslims ( In fact Ex-muslims ) ; These are the bold , courageous muslims who realised truth and they tried to speak it loud , they were threatened with death threats and are hiding in West under full protection of Western Goverments.
Example : Salmaan Rushdie ( Author of Satanic Verses) , Taslima Nasreen ( Author of Lajja) , Ali Sina , Ayan Hirshi Ali , Ishad Manji.