Islam- What the West Needs to Know

[haldir]

This is a documentary. It is over 90 minutes long. It really opened my eyes a year or so ago when I watched. If you haven't watched, I highly recommend. But I warn you that it can anger a person.

Islam: What the West Needs to Know - FULL LENGTH ENGLISH VERSION

 

[Beau]

tag

 

[haldir]

tag

you're it.

 

[Beau]

Watched "Islam, what the west needs to know".


My head hurts.

 

[SavageEagle]

Will watch when I haven't been up all night pacing back and forth...

 

[Cwood]

I just watched it. It verified some of the suspicions that I had.

 

[Beau]

I just watched it. It verified some of the suspensions that I had.

Same here. I want to learn more though before I competley make up my mind. The more I learn the more difficult I find it to accept that any part of Islam is peaceful. The more I learn the more I think that a Muslim is only peaceful if it suits their purpose.

 

[Phil502]

The more I learn the more I think that a Muslim is only peaceful if it suits their purpose.

I believe thats correct, I have not watched it yet but I will later. I remember snippets here and there through the years and I think in the Koran it says that until a Muslim has the upper hand in a nation basically just be cool and wait for the chance to force Islam on everyone.

 

[5.56'aholic]

I never knew that the koran was not organized chronologically, but via length of passage. Kind throws the whole "islam is peaceful" argument out the window for me.

I used to believe (because i was told in college by my "professors") that any passage in the koran could be overturned by a later verse, and that towards the end of the koran it says to allow all religions to practice in peace. I now know that this is a bu!! sh!t interpretation by feel good liberal scholars to help paint islam in a better light for the masses before they are subdued.

 

[haldir]

I used to believe (because i was told in college by my "professors") that any passage in the koran could be overturned by a later verse, and that towards the end of the koran it says to allow all religions to practice in peace. I now know that this is a bu!! sh!t interpretation by feel good liberal scholars to help paint islam in a better light for the masses before they are subdued.

I think this is the problem. So many well meaning people keep repeating the things they have heard or read. As Lenin said, a lie told often enough becomes the truth. It has been repeated so often that Islam is a religion of peace that many people just accept it as the truth. They just discount any contradiction of that as hate-mongering.

 

[Beau]

So is there such a thing as a peaceful Muslim? Or are they all just bidding their time. Waiting for the moment when their numbers are sufficient to rise up and wage war.

What to we/you/I/us do? What can we do?

I am definately going to be spreading the video around but other than that??????

 

[haldir]

I am sure there probably are some that are here that would love to live the American dream in peace. I think though that when called upon by less peaceful brethren it is hard for them to say no because they know they are called to jihad by their religion. Even within their own heart, you never know when they might feel the call to a closer walk with their god. Supposedly the Ft. Hood shooter used to be fairly non-religious. Just like some Christians I have known, they suddenly decide to get really devout, they may change denominations for more charismatic ones.

As to what we can do, that is a really good question. I certainly don't advocate vigilante violence. I don't advocate rounding them up and putting them in gulags. I don't think we should have open immigration policies for them. I don't think we should be bullied into accepting any bits of Sharia law. I just read this past week that Wales is going to open up a Sharia court for them. I know this next area is where many will get upset, but I think the Feds will have to keep an eye on what they do. If you or members of your family attend camp in Pakistan, that may be a bad sign. If you send money to Hamas or Hezbollah, you may not be a friend to this country. If you are a non citizen that engages in speech advocating the violent overthrow of this government or attacks upon its citizens, you should be deported at the very least. And that includes little chats in Arabic that are different than what you say in English.

 

[Beau]

I understand what your saying and even agree. At the same time though.....

It seems the true nature of Islam is not of peace. They want the whole world governed by Sharia law. Even in the video the claim is made that any Muslim who claims Islam as a religion of peace is either lying or ignorant to the true meaning of the religion. I don't think that keeping a close eye on Muslims is really going to help in the long run. Eventually they will have enough "peaceful" numbers in the US to turn non peaceful and do some real damage.

I see an uphill battle on a very slippery slope now and in the future.

 

[techres]

I am curious, how many American Muslims have you met Haldir? Personally met?

 

[haldir]

Just met, no more than 3 or 4 over the years. I freely admit to not having gotten to know any of them. Does that disqualify me from reading and forming an opinion?

 

[techres]

Just met, no more than 3 or 4 over the years. I freely admit to not having gotten to know any of them. Does that disqualify me from reading and forming an opinion?

Once you move into talking about Islam/Every Muslim, then yeah, knowing a few can be very useful.

We've been round and round about this carosel before and it must make you wonder why BOR and I are always in this fight when, as Jews, you'd think we would be the first with some kind of blood feud with the Muslims.

The reason otherwise is because that same "Everyone in a Religious Group" is "Out to do XYZ to the world" has been done to our "group" and it sends up our warning flags in a huge way. Heck, you wanna find out about New World Orders and Religions taking over the world and I bet you can find many, many 90 minute tapes that will tell you that BOR and I were busy manipulating the world monetary system last Tuesday night at the Illuminati meeting.

Or, instead, you can read about the massecres that have happened in the history of Jews when people "formed their own opinions"' got in a fuss and then went out to "solve" their problems. It is easy to let this kind of talk get way, way out of whack.

So, I prefer to meet people and get to know them. Then form opinions. It is the same thing I ask anti-gunners to do when I take them to the range.

Now, does this mean that there is not a problem between Medieval Thinking Islam and the modern secular world? Oh, there is a problem. Big time. No argument there.

But if you are going to deal with that problem, you had better have an approach that deals with the problem people and not the whole religion. You have a problem with 1-10 million Muslims, and instead want to fight 1 Billion?

So, back to the comment about getting to know people before talking about "all of them". I have, so what have I learned?

• Muslims do incorporate religion and politics, much like other religions do - but they do it far more crudely.
• Do they grasp secular freedoms? Yes, they do, most of them. They are just not always willing to stand up against their own own who do not. This is made worse by the common parlance of tolerance which tends to make us weak on our 1A rights.
• Do they respect other religions? Yep, but they would GREATLY prefer to convert everyone. That they have in common with many other religions.
• Do they raise kids, have jobs, eat food, pay taxes, exercise their rights as fellow Americans? The ones I have met do. I have even broken bread with a few.
• Do they have fundamental differences of opinions that make conversation nearly impossible? Yes. I know one that I will likely never speak to again. We just cannot see the situation in Israel in a close enough way. Too much blood on each side, from too many friends on each side.
• Most importantly - there are many, many kinds of Muslims. Some that I would expect to fight in the streets if it came to that, and others that I would hide in my attic if it came to that. I do not want to see either of those futures.

We are in a culture war here between Medieval Religosity and Modern Freedoms. Islam is afflicted greatly but it is not alone in this problem. And addressing it will not be successful by pointing to all Muslims and all of a Religion.

That kind of thing gets you to the wrong place, real fast.

That was my point.

 

[haldir]

Yes I have noticed that you and BOR both respond negatively to my posts at times. No it doesn't surprise me just because you are Jews. Polls show that American Jews have views that run strongly counter to those that might expected based upon the views of Israelis. They are distinct groups with distinct interests and views.

So in this particular instance is it merely posting the link to this documentary that you find offensive or was it something in my comments? I thought I was fairly restrained in those comments. Could you point out specifically what you found offensive. I understand that I am here at the mod's discretion. If I am violating some rule of conduct, I certainly want to avoid doing so again.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Once you move into talking about Islam/Every Muslim, then yeah, knowing a few can be very useful.

We've been round and round about this carosel before and it must make you wonder why BOR and I are always in this fight when, as Jews, you'd think we would be the first with some kind of blood feud with the Muslims.

The reason otherwise is because that same "Everyone in a Religious Group" is "Out to do XYZ to the world" has been done to our "group" and it sends up our warning flags in a huge way. Heck, you wanna find out about New World Orders and Religions taking over the world and I bet you can find many, many 90 minute tapes that will tell you that BOR and I were busy manipulating the world monetary system last Tuesday night at the Illuminati meeting.

Or, instead, you can read about the massecres that have happened in the history of Jews when people "formed their own opinions"' got in a fuss and then went out to "solve" their problems. It is easy to let this kind of talk get way, way out of whack.

So, I prefer to meet people and get to know them. Then form opinions. It is the same thing I ask anti-gunners to do when I take them to the range.

Now, does this mean that there is not a problem between Medieval Thinking Islam and the modern secular world? Oh, there is a problem. Big time. No argument there.

But if you are going to deal with that problem, you had better have an approach that deals with the problem people and not the whole religion. You have a problem with 1-10 million Muslims, and instead want to fight 1 Billion?

So, back to the comment about getting to know people before talking about "all of them". I have, so what have I learned?

• Muslims do incorporate religion and politics, much like other religions do - but they do it far more crudely.
• Do they grasp secular freedoms? Yes, they do, most of them. They are just not always willing to stand up against their own own who do not. This is made worse by the common parlance of tolerance which tends to make us weak on our 1A rights.
• Do they respect other religions? Yep, but they would GREATLY prefer to convert everyone. That they have in common with many other religions.
• Do they raise kids, have jobs, eat food, pay taxes, exercise their rights as fellow Americans? The ones I have met do. I have even broken bread with a few.
• Do they have fundamental differences of opinions that make conversation nearly impossible? Yes. I know one that I will likely never speak to again. We just cannot see the situation in Israel in a close enough way. Too much blood on each side, from too many friends on each side.
• Most importantly - there are many, many kinds of Muslims. Some that I would expect to fight in the streets if it came to that, and others that I would hide in my attic if it came to that. I do not want to see either of those futures.

We are in a culture war here between Medieval Religosity and Modern Freedoms. Islam is afflicted greatly but it is not alone in this problem. And addressing it will not be successful by pointing to all Muslims and all of a Religion.

That kind of thing gets you to the wrong place, real fast.

That was my point.

Quite correct. I have no argument with "Muslims" as a group. None. I don't even care if their stated belief is that, having been born to a Jewish family, I must be killed. Believe what you want. This does not mean that I am unprepared for the one who comes to make that belief into reality, it simply means that until he does so, I make the effort to keep peace, to educate, to give him reason to see for himself that I'm not his enemy. If I am forced into the position of having to take a life to save my own, I will do so, but I'm clear on the fact that that person is my enemy only because he has taken action against me, not solely because of his religious belief.

To take the Godwin's Law example, I will defend the right of neo-Nazis to speak. I will speak against their message, but not their rights and freedoms. I am not their friend nor are they mine, but this great experiment initiated by Mr. Jefferson, Mr. Madison, and their contemporaries depends not on a man's beliefs but upon his birthright as a human being.

I'm not sure how well I'm saying this. The fact is that the only person I know personally who is even close to this belief married into it. Her demeanor toward me did not outwardly change with her marriage, though I do not know her husband. I know others online who claim Muslim belief, having converted as well. Again, no outward change in demeanor. It's a small sample size and not statistically significant, but at present, it's the only data on which I can make a determination.

I'll stand on basic human rights. They're not Muslim rights, not Black rights, not Asian rights, Jewish rights, Christian rights;

"...we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."

They're human rights, and along with them, human responsibilities; to act in a way respectful of others' rights as well.

That's my .

Blessings,
Bill

 

[techres]

Yes I have noticed that you and BOR both respond negatively to my posts at times. No it doesn't surprise me just because you are Jews. Polls show that American Jews have views that run strongly counter to those that might expected based upon the views of Israelis. They are distinct groups with distinct interests and views.

So in this particular instance is it merely posting the link to this documentary that you find offensive or was it something in my comments? I thought I was fairly restrained in those comments. Could you point out specifically what you found offensive. I understand that I am here at the mod's discretion. If I am violating some rule of conduct, I certainly want to avoid doing so again.

You have violated no code of conduct that I can see and if I were concerned that you had, I would ask some Mod other than myself or BOR to look into it as a disinterested third party.

As to my posting in this thread, the reason is stated well enough in my posts. My posts here are as a board member concerned about an issue, not as a Mod making administrative corrections.

 

[techres]

You asked a fair question and I came back to answer more carefully. I actually mixed the comment by Beau with the one you had and confused the two. That being said, I still stand by my comments.

Let me answer your posting specifically though:

I am sure there probably are some that are here that would love to live the American dream in peace. I think though that when called upon by less peaceful brethren it is hard for them to say no because they know they are called to jihad by their religion. Even within their own heart, you never know when they might feel the call to a closer walk with their god. Supposedly the Ft. Hood shooter used to be fairly non-religious. Just like some Christians I have known, they suddenly decide to get really devout, they may change denominations for more charismatic ones.

I am glad you see differences between the Muslims here. However, you still equate all deepening of faith and heading towards Jihad. Sure, there is a tendency among all religions for the converts and newly awakened to head towards more extreme, but how does this differ from Christians who decide to move into bombing abortion clinics. How is this specific to Muslims?

As to what we can do, that is a really good question. I certainly don't advocate vigilante violence. I don't advocate rounding them up and putting them in gulags. I don't think we should have open immigration policies for them. I don't think we should be bullied into accepting any bits of Sharia law. I just read this past week that Wales is going to open up a Sharia court for them. I know this next area is where many will get upset, but I think the Feds will have to keep an eye on what they do.

Why? There should be no religious court that stands above the law of the land or even stands parallel. Sure, Beit Din's exist for Jews but only as a form of arbitration and have no other standing than does arbitration. Sharia courts would be exactly the same. It is again not an issue of one religion, it is an issue of law above religion.

If you or members of your family attend camp in Pakistan, that may be a bad sign. If you send money to Hamas or Hezbollah, you may not be a friend to this country.

Yep. No question there. And we should not romanticize "resistance fighting" just like they do. I agree with this and have seen it in person. It is just as ugly as sending money to the IRA to blow up British pubs even if you are a Catholic.

If you are a non citizen that engages in speech advocating the violent overthrow of this government or attacks upon its citizens, you should be deported at the very least.

It is all we can do to keep the violent overthrow language down on INGO some days. It is no different if it is yet more "resistance" language or just a desire to shoot at guys in uniforms whom we think are the cause of all our ills. Again, nothing unique to Muslims here.

And that includes little chats in Arabic that are different than what you say in English.

Yeah, that happens alot and that is why we need as many friends as we can get, especially Arabic speakers and natives. We need them and they need us. We need them to help us stop the terror and they need us to help them get a better future.

And none of that is going to happen if we do not think of a future where they will still be Muslims and Islam will be one of the worlds biggest religions.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we need to spend more time talking about how to bring Islam on it's way and less time focussed on how Islam is a religion of peace or war.