Is a properly holstered handgun considered "safe"?

[LP1]

Carrying a gun in any way, shape, or form, violates the "4 rules". This is why I don't live by the "4 rules".

Once you are no longer an idiot in the gun world, you realize the 4 rules are only there as something to learn by.

The real fact is... the gun is not always loaded and the muzzle will sweep you or someone else if you choose to carry. The only way it won't is if you are carrying a long gun and it is slung over your shoulder pointing up... which in turn violates the 4 rules... so yeah, there's just no possible way to not violate those civilian world rules. This is why people need training and why common sense should be a requirement for life.

Wow, just wow. Hope you're not at the range when I am.

 

[BugI02]

Yep, I will place you right there with pilots and doctors - two more groups who are so professional and skilled they don't need no stinking basic safety protocols.
You might want to check into how that is working out for them.

Hint: In the industry this is known as a 'v-tailed doctor killer' View attachment 43657

 

[BugI02]

One of the "Four Rules" (see those quotations, because they aren't actually rules, just something someone made up because of some negligent people) is, "Do not point the gun at anything you do not intend to shoot". It doesn't matter where you put the holstered gun on your body, it will point at your own body or someone else's at some point in time.

Whether you appendix, pocket, OWB, IWB, Drop leg, Six o' clock, shoulder holster, heck I could go on and on with different ways to carry.... but the muzzle will point in an "unsafe" (according to those "rules") direction throughout the day. The thing that makes a holstered handgun safe is the holster. As you said earlier, people just need to stop playing with it and treat it for what it really is.

And yes, in a way it is the whole, "we are so professional that the "Four Rules" do not apply to us" thing. Because in some situations there is no other choice but to accidentally sweep someone. Think about clearing a building or house... or maybe you've never done it.

Our opinions obviously differ based on what training each of us has had. I'm not condemning anyone who practices those "rules" religiously, but I believe using common sense and safe gun handling is much better. Since I've been on INGO I've noticed the differences of opinion between people who have been trained in the military compared to civilians and what their beliefs on these "rules" are. You can always tell based on the "muzzle sweep" threads and how worked up civilians get when an obviously cleared gun muzzle sweeps them. Whereas the military crowd doesn't really care, because they know it's clear and not going to cause any harm.

All of this is not to say that I don't teach these rules to people who come to me to learn to shoot. Since they are new to it and haven't had any training, I teach them those rules and others that we learned in boot camp. As I stated earlier, IMO they are for new shooters so that they will always practice safe gun handling.

You have a beard, right?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ck, thanks for your response. I think answers like this are very important to making a safer gun culture. I appreciate your time.

I think this discussion is important but have more questions if you could be so kind.

One of the "Four Rules" (see those quotations, because they aren't actually rules, just something someone made up because of some negligent people) is, "Do not point the gun at anything you do not intend to shoot". It doesn't matter where you put the holstered gun on your body, it will point at your own body or someone else's at some point in time.

The Four Rules give order and discipline and are vital to avoid problems for us civilly and criminally.

My holstered guns are not pointing at me or anyone else at any point in the day. Do you make this statement in rationalization of appendix carry (seated obviously) or some other method that is hip and trendy now?

And yes, in a way it is the whole, "we are so professional that the "Four Rules" do not apply to us" thing. Because in some situations there is no other choice but to accidentally sweep someone. Think about clearing a building or house... or maybe you've never done it.

I've done it a bunch, but got no badge or salad suit.

Bad things have happened to those who violate the Four Rules, in the gun store or off being Timmy Tactical. Adherence to the Four Rules allows us to avoid the consequences that will come upon violation of them.

It is a crime to point a gun at someone, unless done in self-defense. A jury may or may not believe that one did not "mean" to do it. If we adhere to Rule #2 and 4 then we don't have to worry about it.

but I believe using common sense and safe gun handling is much better.

As you imagine, in my gig, I hear that a lot, "common sense" gun handling. But remember Rule #1 was the only rule at API and "common sense" was to rule the day. It did not as what is "common sense" was highly subjective.

So, what is "common sense" with "safe gun handling"? Is "common sense" not the codification of the Four Rules.

Whereas the military crowd doesn't really care, because they know it's clear and not going to cause any harm.

I think there may be more to it, that is still a crime and can get one in admin trouble as well.

 

[Trigger Time]

If you carry without a round in the chamber your dumb and might as well not carry at all.
a properly holstered gun is a safe and happy gun

 

[ckcollins2003]

Wow, just wow. Hope you're not at the range when I am.

Don't get your hopes up... I wouldn't be found at a range that sucks that bad. And for the record, don't confuse me with someone who is negligent. I practice safe firearm handling at all times.

Yep, I will place you right there with pilots and doctors - two more groups who are so professional and skilled they don't need no stinking basic safety protocols.
You might want to check into how that is working out for them.
Hint: In the industry this is known as a 'v-tailed doctor killer' View attachment 43657

Awesome, glad I can be placed in the same group as successful people that the community needs. As for your beard question, yes, I do have a beard. Many shooters who are much more skilled than you also have them. Let that sink in.

Ck, thanks for your response. I think answers like this are very important to making a safer gun culture. I appreciate your time.

I think this discussion is important but have more questions if you could be so kind.



The Four Rules give order and discipline and are vital to avoid problems for us civilly and criminally.

My holstered guns are not pointing at me or anyone else at any point in the day. Do you make this statement in rationalization of appendix carry (seated obviously) or some other method that is hip and trendy now?

I like your professionalism. Now onto the discussion.

I find it hard to believe that the barrel of your gun never sweeps your leg or foot. I OWB carry at 3 o'clock and in a normal stance with my feet just over shoulder width apart, if the gun were to go off I would have a bullet go through my leg. When I sit in the car it is actually safer, but then when I am a big laid back in a restaurant booth it points more forwards to whoever is on the opposite side of me. Then when I pocket carry, well... yeah, it's breaking the rule all the time. Even though the trigger is covered, people on here make it seem like I've already murdered someone. Those would be your basic shooters who are too ignorant to figure out that they actually do the same thing but hate to admit it in public.

I've done it a bunch, but got no badge or salad suit.

Bad things have happened to those who violate the Four Rules, in the gun store or off being Timmy Tactical. Adherence to the Four Rules allows us to avoid the consequences that will come upon violation of them.

It is a crime to point a gun at someone, unless done in self-defense. A jury may or may not believe that one did not "mean" to do it. If we adhere to Rule #2 and 4 then we don't have to worry about it.

I would venture to say that you are correct, bad things have happened to people who have violated those four rules, but they obviously weren't using safe gun handling. Finger off the trigger... that is one of the rules that I completely agree with. That is safe gun handling. Even if the gun is clear, unless you are doing dry firing drills and have your ammo apart from the weapon, your finger should be off the trigger.

As you imagine, in my gig, I hear that a lot, "common sense" gun handling. But remember Rule #1 was the only rule at API and "common sense" was to rule the day. It did not as what is "common sense" was highly subjective.

So, what is "common sense" with "safe gun handling"? Is "common sense" not the codification of the Four Rules.
I think there may be more to it, that is still a crime and can get one in admin trouble as well.

I mean, if you want to venture out and say common sense is practicing the 4 rules then go for it. And I'm not even saying that I don't practice them or that people shouldn't. You guys are getting it confused. I'm simply saying that they are there as a basic step stool. I'm also saying that most people break them without even realizing it and that some of them aren't meant to be taken to the point that some people, like the people giving me a hard time on here, take it.

Carrying appendix style or IWB 6 o'clock in a proper holster is not negligence. It's breaking those "rules", but they are completely safe methods of carrying.

 

[BugI02]

I would think that chip on your shoulder would make you push your shots to the left

 

[MohawkSlim]

Disagreement = chip on the shoulder?

My holstered guns are not pointing at me or anyone else at any point in the day.

Would you mind posting a picture or explaining how this is possible?

I'll admit I'm no physicist but I fail to see how you avoid pointing at anyone 100% of the time. I had a buddy who claimed that and then told me he worked on the 2nd floor. I asked if there were people downstairs. "Well, uh......"

It is a crime to point a gun at someone, unless done in self-defense.

Not true at all.

This is like saying the 4 Rules apply 100% of the time. You can apply them but that doesn't necessarily mean they always apply. Pointing a gun at someone could be a crime but it's not always a crime.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'll admit I'm no physicist but I fail to see how you avoid pointing at anyone 100% of the time.

A pistol carried in the strong side does not point at anyone. I'll see if I can find a photo so you can see this demonstrated.

Not true at all.

So, you think it is legal to point guns at people? You are in for a rude surprise.

This is like saying the 4 Rules apply 100% of the time. You can apply them but that doesn't necessarily mean they always apply.

Right, right, I'm so professional the rules don't apply to me. Everyone is a special snow flake. Don't we have a DEA Agent demonstrating this position?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Just adding to your insightful answer.

The little kids' argument that "THAT gun ain't low-dead" necessitated the codification of the other three.

Or, the first one is obvious BS statement that is not instructive and that leads to a "well, if it isn't loaded then..." mentality and the second is an instruction that, if followed, results in safe gun handling.

You keep saying the same thing I said, only attempting to shift the blame to students instead of just admitting the rule failed because it is not instructive and leads to a...well, you know. If enough people failed to learn safe gun handling from your rule to the point it had to be changed PERHAPS THE FAILING IS WITH THE RULE.

See, "kids" and newbies NEED INSTRUCTION. If they knew how to handle a loaded gun, they wouldn't need a gun safety class. Calling it a kid's argument/little kid's argument so you can dismiss everyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't change that.

 

[Woobie]

Looks like people don't believe ready up drills happen. Cleared weapons get pointed at people all the time in the military, and there isn't any admin punishment for it. I stood in a barracks for a couple of hours once doing ready ups with someone across from me doing the same, and an NCO walking between everyone. Speak from knowledge, your points won't sound so weak that way.

Everyone compromises on the rules, they just won't admit it. You'll have to pull that trigger to take down your Glock. You'll point it at yourself or someone else at some point if it is in a holster, no matter what kind it is. You have done it if you carry. You will test a trigger on a potential new purchase. You will do dry fire practice (or is training too scary?).

The four rules are very important, and a great aid in teaching responsibility. But it is irresponsible to think you don't violate them. Better to know and understand what those violations are, and ensure they are not happening in a way that is actually dangerous or negligent. If you can't come to grips with that, then sell your ammo and lock your empty guns in a safe, never to see daylight.

And I get all the beard hate, but some of us really hate getting up at Oh Dark Thirty, pouring cold water into a canteen cup, smearing shaving cream on and scraping a dull razor across our faces in hopes that we won't get busted for not shaving on our tenth day without a shower. So yeah, I grow mine out when I get the chance, and it isn't because some loser who couldn't make it past 30th AG who teaches everyone how to shoot on YouTube has one.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I guess I'm simple minded...


Gonna go with...


Yes.

 

[chezuki]

Kirk, I sincerely wish I'd been a creeper and snapped a pic of you at the Sushi Club meet with your holstered 1911 "pointed at" your own leg... It happens to EVERYONE who carries a gun, whether they admit it or not.

I use quotation marks because I, an admittedly bearded but completely non-tactical non-operator high-drag low-speed gun enthusiast, among many others, believe that a properly holstered pistol cannot be pointed at anything... because it is properly holstered.

 

[chipbennett]

Awhile ago in the handguns section, someone posted a picture of their new pistol - resting on his thigh, in a holster, clearly pointing directly at his crotch. Would you call this "safe"?

Does a holster resting on one's thigh constitute "properly holstered"?

 

[chipbennett]

One of the "Four Rules" (see those quotations, because they aren't actually rules, just something someone made up because of some negligent people) is, "Do not point the gun at anything you do not intend to shoot". It doesn't matter where you put the holstered gun on your body, it will point at your own body or someone else's at some point in time.

The Four Rules apply to firearm handling. If a firearm is holstered, it is not being handled. Comport oneself accordingly, using common sense.

 

[eldirector]

Seems to be two definitions of "pointing" we have been using.

1) Knowingly and intentionally manipulating the gun so that the business end is directed at something (eg: pointing it at a target)

2) The direction an object is facing (eg: the guns in a display case are all pointing at the customers' legs)

Currently, my handgun is "pointing" at the floor (AWB, strong-side holster, not-quite FBI-cant, and I am sitting). However, *I* am not pointing my gun at anyone or anything.

If a holstered handgun meets #1 above, then are all committing felonies every time we carry (unless you carry on an empty chamber, I suppose).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Kirk, I sincerely wish I'd been a creeper and snapped a pic of you at the Sushi Club meet with your holstered 1911 "pointed at" your own leg... It happens to EVERYONE who carries a gun, whether they admit it or not.

I use quotation marks because I, an admittedly bearded but completely non-tactical non-operator high-drag low-speed gun enthusiast, among many others, believe that a properly holstered pistol cannot be pointed at anything... because it is properly holstered.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

In order for a gun to be pointed at something it has to be manipulated by someone and simultaneously oriented (pointed) toward something.
A holstered gun is at rest and is not being "pointed" because it's not being manipulated.
It takes 2 to tango.

 

[88E30M50]

I think the thing that confuses a lot of folks is the difference between a handled gun and one that's in storage of some sort. Any handled gun can be unsafe if assembled. A gun in a holster is not being handled, it's in storage for use if needed. Is my gun unsafe while I'm holstering it? Of course, but if I follow the 4 rules, the safety risk should be minimized. Are guns unsafe while holstered? Possibly, if there is a malfuntion of the holster or pistol, but a properly maintained and carried gun in a good quality holster that's in good condition and being carried on a proper belt is not unsafe. Once a hand is placed on it, then all bets are off, as it's no longer in storage and is now being handled.

I'm with Kirk on the first rule. Its there to remove the duality of the mindset of loaded or unloaded. The first rule is important because without it, a person learns two ways to handle a gun. One is to be very careful because it's loaded. The other is that it's ok to relax because the gun is now unloaded. That mindset has killed a lot of people.

 

[SteveM4A1]

I'm with Kirk on the first rule. Its there to remove the duality of the mindset of loaded or unloaded. The first rule is important because without it, a person learns two ways to handle a gun. One is to be very careful because it's loaded. The other is that it's ok to relax because the gun is now unloaded. That mindset has killed a lot of people.

Interestingly enough, rule 1 is the only rule that discusses loaded status. The other 3 rules don't mention the firearm's condition and for good reason. They should be followed regardless, but rule 1 can lead some to believe that the following rules don't need followed when one thinks the weapon is unloaded.