INGO Member on Channel 13 news tonight

[dholmtime]

I wonder if he was CC during this interview??

 

[Tripp11]

I can't believe that the judge would give them a continuance. They have had 3 months already. This isn't a capitol murder case, it's just a simple ordinance violation!

+1 I agree with this sentiment.

 

[Tripp11]

Is the light still going to be shining on Carmel two months from now?

I hope so. I know my circle of friends have been talking about your case for some time now, and we all think it beyond ridiculous. The more people talking about this the better...as long as common sense rules!

 

[henktermaat]

I can't say enough how upset the additional delay makes me. I WILL BE THERE when the court case goes down, if the chicken-****s grown enough gonads to let this thing happen.

This has already been pushed back like three times. The light WILL NOT go off. My neighbor is a gun guy too, I might be able to get him there as well...

I also cannot praise Liberty Sanders enough for not settling, and for doing a fantastic interview. As a Carmel resident, it is 110% in my interest to see this whole thing out to the end, because it could so conceivably be me behind this rap.

LS, you can tell your lawyer that is he does a good job on this 2A case, he'll get a call from me and perhaps others seeking his help someday.

 

[henktermaat]

I wonder if he was CC during this interview??

You can bet your life on it.

 

[DCR]

This will take a week to 10 days to cool off, then you'll get a letter in the mail dropping all charges.

If the media are still interested, the prosecutor will release a statement that due to his busy schedule, they've decided in the best interest of their department not to pursue charges, but to concentrate their resources on other issues.

 

[Bigum1969]

I would make sure that the media -- especially the TV station that did the interview -- know that Carmel has postponed this...

 

[patton487]

This will take a week to 10 days to cool off, then you'll get a letter in the mail dropping all charges.

If the media are still interested, the prosecutor will release a statement that due to his busy schedule, they've decided in the best interest of their department not to pursue charges, but to concentrate their resources on other issues.

I'm hoping for this^^

Let them try to save face a little, then quietly drop all charges.

How many continuances does this make now???

 

[Kutnupe14]

Q, I am not attacking you. The officer was 100% wrong, and you are trying to defend him. That makes you 100% wrong.

There was and should have been an investigation. The conclusion based on the facts should have been a finding of no wrong doing and no citation.
The officer was wrong because his own statement said that he "felt" that the dogs were not aggressive.

Who cares how he "felt". He was not there. LS had to make a split second decision.

If the LEO does the wrong thing, then the prosecuter does the wrong thing, and the judge ends up doing the wrong thing, where does it end?

When faced with BS, we have to call it out for what it is... BS

I know alot of people in Carmel. They all tell me the same thing. There is something different about dealing with CPD. They love to write tickets and they have alot of attitude.

Ok, I felt I needed to address this post. In my opinion, Liberty seems like a really good guy, but looking at the details of the case Liberty should loses. If he recants his story in the exact same way he did in his thread, the story is cut and dry.
Liberty admittedly confronted the "dogs at large" in an attempt to coerce them back into their fenced yard. If the dogs were that aggressive, in such a way that one would fear for their life and the lives of others, why press the issue by attempting pursuade the dogs to go home. That fact that he was interacting with the dogs prior, seriously weakens his argument that the dogs were so aggressive that he was in fear for his life.

Concerning the discharge of the weapon... if someone is in legitimate fear for their life, you don't EVER fire warning shots... regardless of the situation. If one is balancing the scales of their life vs upseting their neighbor over a dead pet, I think we alll know which way the scales "tip."

So, on the surface, the citation is, from a very "black and white" perspective, valid. Now, I think officer descretion could have been used better in this situation... possibly. I havent spoken to anyone associated with this case, but if there were also complaints about "gunshots in the area," that could have tempered the officer's (actually Sgt's) decision.

Now to address Patton's "claims" about Carmel PD. He knows a lot of people that live in Carmel.... and I agree when dealing with a CPD there is a difference. However, it's not the way your friends claim.

Carmel is one of the most affluent and educated populaces in Indiana. Many are what you would call "entitled." You can't exactly have rude, disrespectful, idiot officers 'round there, because people here love to complain. I have been complained on because I called a woman by her "first" name.... I've been complained on, after drawing down of a guy who I told to not reach into his pockets, because he was "dressed in a suit and tie, and clearly did not meet the criminal profile."

...and you think this is an environment where rouge officers run roughshod of the people they serve? Please.

Further, you stated that a Carmel officers love to write tickets. According to who? Your friends? I'm going to suggest that you find better friends if theyre having so much contact with CPD. Last year, I wrote less than 60 citations last year. Sure I stopped a lot of cars, but more often than not, they aren't cited.... CPD isnt filling city coffers with ticket revenue, as exactly $5 for every citation written, comes back to the city.

Your knowledge is 2nd hand, and mine is first. If your "friends" want to illustrate their "beef" with CPD, so I can call a spade a spade, tell them to sign up here. If not, I suggest, unless it's your experiences specifically, that you steer clear of citing your friends "stories" as "fact."

 

[patton487]

Ok, I felt I needed to address this post. In my opinion, Liberty seems like a really good guy, but looking at the details of the case Liberty should loses. If he recants his story in the exact same way he did in his thread, the story is cut and dry.
Liberty admittedly confronted the "dogs at large" in an attempt to coerce them back into their fenced yard. If the dogs were that aggressive, in such a way that one would fear for their life and the lives of others, why press the issue by attempting pursuade the dogs to go home. That fact that he was interacting with the dogs prior, seriously weakens his argument that the dogs were so aggressive that he was in fear for his life.

Concerning the discharge of the weapon... if someone is in legitimate fear for their life, you don't EVER fire warning shots... regardless of the situation. If one is balancing the scales of their life vs upseting their neighbor over a dead pet, I think we alll know which way the scales "tip."

So, on the surface, the citation is, from a very "black and white" perspective, valid. Now, I think officer descretion could have been used better in this situation... possibly. I havent spoken to anyone associated with this case, but if there were also complaints about "gunshots in the area," that could have tempered the officer's (actually Sgt's) decision.

Now to address Patton's "claims" about Carmel PD. He knows a lot of people that live in Carmel.... and I agree when dealing with a CPD there is a difference. However, it's not the way your friends claim.

Carmel is one of the most affluent and educated populaces in Indiana. Many are what you would call "entitled." You can't exactly have rude, disrespectful, idiot officers 'round there, because people here love to complain. I have been complained on because I called a woman by her "first" name.... I've been complained on, after drawing down of a guy who I told to not reach into his pockets, because he was "dressed in a suit and tie, and clearly did not meet the criminal profile."

...and you think this is an environment where rouge officers run roughshod of the people they serve? Please.

Further, you stated that a Carmel officers love to write tickets. According to who? Your friends? I'm going to suggest that you find better friends if theyre having so much contact with CPD. Last year, I wrote less than 60 citations last year. Sure I stopped a lot of cars, but more often than not, they aren't cited.... CPD isnt filling city coffers with ticket revenue, as exactly $5 for every citation written, comes back to the city.

Your knowledge is 2nd hand, and mine is first. If your "friends" want to illustrate their "beef" with CPD, so I can call a spade a spade, tell them to sign up here. If not, I suggest, unless it's your experiences specifically, that you steer clear of citing your friends "stories" as "fact."

Kutnupe, I know where you are coming from, being on the "inside" and all. So I take no offense at your comments.

I stated what I know from friends who live in Hamilton County and that have had direct interaction with CPD or told me of their friends who have.

Yes, all my info is second hand from people I believe. BUT, this forum is NOT a courtroom. I have no "burden of proof to meet". I don't have the time or inclination to try to prove anything to you. Take it or leave it for what it is worth.

Whether the reputation is earned or not. It is public perception of a lot of people about CPD. If you don't believe me read the comments from the Channel 13 news story.

And I have no clue where you came up with this statement "...and you think this is an environment where rouge officers run roughshod of the people they serve? Please. "
I don't remember saying that!

I have nothing against you, I'm sure you do a fine job in your "most affluent and educated populace in Indiana." But I still think the LEO that wrote the citation was wrong.

I would like to hear how you would have handled the situation....

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kutnupe, I know where you are coming from, being on the "inside" and all. So I take no offense at your comments.

I stated what I know from friends who live in Hamilton County and that have had direct interaction with CPD or told me of their friends who have.

Yes, all my info is second hand from people I believe. BUT, this forum is NOT a courtroom. I have no "burden of proof to meet". I don't have the time or inclination to try to prove anything to you. Take it or leave it for what it is worth.

Whether the reputation is earned or not. It is public perception of a lot of people about CPD. If you don't believe me read the comments from the Channel 13 news story.

And I have no clue where you came up with this statement "...and you think this is an environment where rouge officers run roughshod of the people they serve? Please. "
I don't remember saying that!

I have nothing against you, I'm sure you do a fine job in your "most affluent and educated populace in Indiana." But I still think the LEO that wrote the citation was wrong.

I would like to hear how you would have handled the situation....

If the officer is wrong, he's wrong in his application of descretion. I can't describe how I would have handled the situation because I only know one side of the story.

Fyi, I have no issue with you either but, I take "stories" about CPD with a grain of salt, because in my experience, everybody has a neg CPD, IMPD, ISP, NPD, HCSD, FPD story. But no one ever has a good story. Why? Because good stories aren't near as interesting and obviously most people are never "in the wrong" when they deal with police. And then of course, these stories "grow wings" as it's passed down from person to person. People that werent even there when the original contact took place.

You made claim that Carmel Police have attitude, and love to write tickets, correct? That's a generalization about all CPD officers. But that's not from your personal experience, it's from you friends experiences right? And I'm telling you, that such isn't the case. Heck, I havent even written a ticket this year! And attitude? Again, in my experience, CPD officers mirror what theyre given. If someone wants to play the attitude game, it can work both ways.... but, it's a rare occasion that the "big bad" CPD officer crushes the church going soccer mom with an attitude without cause.

Take it for what it is, but at the end of the day, you have no personal experience to draw upon, only the word of your friends, who, unless they are "repeat customers (and that's a whole 'nother thread)," can make no legitimate profile based on their limited experiences with CPD.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Ok, I felt I needed to address this post. In my opinion, Liberty seems like a really good guy, but looking at the details of the case Liberty should loses. If he recants his story in the exact same way he did in his thread, the story is cut and dry.
Liberty admittedly confronted the "dogs at large" in an attempt to coerce them back into their fenced yard. If the dogs were that aggressive, in such a way that one would fear for their life and the lives of others, why press the issue by attempting pursuade the dogs to go home. That fact that he was interacting with the dogs prior, seriously weakens his argument that the dogs were so aggressive that he was in fear for his life.

Concerning the discharge of the weapon... if someone is in legitimate fear for their life, you don't EVER fire warning shots... regardless of the situation. If one is balancing the scales of their life vs upseting their neighbor over a dead pet, I think we alll know which way the scales "tip."

So, on the surface, the citation is, from a very "black and white" perspective, valid. Now, I think officer descretion could have been used better in this situation... possibly. I havent spoken to anyone associated with this case, but if there were also complaints about "gunshots in the area," that could have tempered the officer's (actually Sgt's) decision.

Now to address Patton's "claims" about Carmel PD. He knows a lot of people that live in Carmel.... and I agree when dealing with a CPD there is a difference. However, it's not the way your friends claim.

Carmel is one of the most affluent and educated populaces in Indiana. Many are what you would call "entitled." You can't exactly have rude, disrespectful, idiot officers 'round there, because people here love to complain. I have been complained on because I called a woman by her "first" name.... I've been complained on, after drawing down of a guy who I told to not reach into his pockets, because he was "dressed in a suit and tie, and clearly did not meet the criminal profile."

...and you think this is an environment where rouge officers run roughshod of the people they serve? Please.

Further, you stated that a Carmel officers love to write tickets. According to who? Your friends? I'm going to suggest that you find better friends if theyre having so much contact with CPD. Last year, I wrote less than 60 citations last year. Sure I stopped a lot of cars, but more often than not, they aren't cited.... CPD isnt filling city coffers with ticket revenue, as exactly $5 for every citation written, comes back to the city.

Your knowledge is 2nd hand, and mine is first. If your "friends" want to illustrate their "beef" with CPD, so I can call a spade a spade, tell them to sign up here. If not, I suggest, unless it's your experiences specifically, that you steer clear of citing your friends "stories" as "fact."

I'm getting sick and tired of giving life lessons to wet-behind-the-ears rookie cops.

I was never in fear of my life. If I had been I would have killed the mutts outright. I was being attacked, which if I had not acted as I did would have BECOME a situation where my life would have been in danger.

If a dirtbag points a gun at me I don't have to wait until he actually fires at me to defend myself.

As to firing a "warning shot," yes, junior, I went to the police academy too. And I know that in law enforcement we never fire warning shots.

A warning shot occurs when a shot is fired to warn an assailant (or, in the old days, a fleeing suspect) that the next shot will be fired for fatal effect. It is an act of utter futility against an adversary that is incapable of rational thought.

I wasn't warning the dogs that I was going to shoot them if they didn't break off their attack. They're DOGS! They can't understand that. I was doing the same thing that you do to a human suspect that is out of control and can't be reasoned with...I was TASERING them.

My goal was to overwhelm with pain so that they would want nothing more than to get away from me...and that's exactly what happened, with no blood being spilled, mine OR the dogs.

So I should have just stayed in the house and waited until I heard screaming while some grade school kid was having their face ripped off? That might be Carmel PD's way...it's not mine.

You parrot your procedure manual very well. When you have another decade of law enforcement experience under your belt, you come back and second-guess me.

 

[patton487]

If the officer is wrong, he's wrong in his application of descretion. I can't describe how I would have handled the situation because I only know one side of the story.

Fyi, I have no issue with you either but, I take "stories" about CPD with a grain of salt, because in my experience, everybody has a neg CPD, IMPD, ISP, NPD, HCSD, FPD story. But no one ever has a good story. Why? Because good stories aren't near as interesting and obviously most people are never "in the wrong" when they deal with police. And then of course, these stories "grow wings" as it's passed down from person to person. People that werent even there when the original contact took place.

You made claim that Carmel Police have attitude, and love to write tickets, correct? That's a generalization about all CPD officers. But that's not from your personal experience, it's from you friends experiences right? And I'm telling you, that such isn't the case. Heck, I havent even written a ticket this year! And attitude? Again, in my experience, CPD officers mirror what theyre given. If someone wants to play the attitude game, it can work both ways.... but, it's a rare occasion that the "big bad" CPD officer crushes the church going soccer mom with an attitude without cause.

Take it for what it is, but at the end of the day, you have no personal experience to draw upon, only the word of your friends, who, unless they are "repeat customers (and that's a whole 'nother thread)," can make no legitimate profile based on their limited experiences with CPD.

That is the most polite way I have ever been told to "shut up". You should run for Mayor.

I quit, you win.

 

[jsharmon7]

I'm getting sick and tired of giving life lessons to wet-behind-the-ears rookie cops.

I was never in fear of my life. If I had been I would have killed the mutts outright. I was being attacked, which if I had not acted as I did would have BECOME a situation where my life would have been in danger.

If a dirtbag points a gun at me I don't have to wait until he actually fires at me to defend myself.

As to firing a "warning shot," yes, junior, I went to the police academy too. And I know that in law enforcement we never fire warning shots.

A warning shot occurs when a shot is fired to warn an assailant (or, in the old days, a fleeing suspect) that the next shot will be fired for fatal effect. It is an act of utter futility against an adversary that is incapable of rational thought.

I wasn't warning the dogs that I was going to shoot them if they didn't break off their attack. They're DOGS! They can't understand that. I was doing the same thing that you do to a human suspect that is out of control and can't be reasoned with...I was TASERING them.

My goal was to overwhelm with pain so that they would want nothing more than to get away from me...and that's exactly what happened, with no blood being spilled, mine OR the dogs.

So I should have just stayed in the house and waited until I heard screaming while some grade school kid was having their face ripped off? That might be Carmel PD's way...it's not mine.

You parrot your procedure manual very well. When you have another decade of law enforcement experience under your belt, you come back and second-guess me.

I actually don't know kutnupe. Since you do, why don't you tell us how long he's been an officer, what experience he has, and what cases he's worked.

Honestly, I hope things work out for you because you handled the situation without anyone or any animal getting hurt. You shouldn't have to pay a fine or be punished in any way. I just don't understand your superiority complex because you're a retired Lt.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

I actually don't know kutnupe. Since you do, why don't you tell us how long he's been an officer, what experience he has, and what cases he's worked.

Honestly, I hope things work out for you because you handled the situation without anyone or any animal getting hurt. You shouldn't have to pay a fine or be punished in any way. I just don't understand your superiority complex because you're a retired Lt.

I don't know the guy from Adam.

To whom am I superior?

 

[jsharmon7]

I don't know the guy from Adam.

To whom am I superior?

Well you referred to him (kutnupe) as a "wet-behind-the-ears rookie cop" and "junior." Then you made reference to "getting another decade of experience under his belt." I just assumed that in order to make those assumptions of him, that you knew him. It also sounded sort of condescending and dismissive. Look, I don't want to take away from your thread, it was just an observation. Good luck Monday.

 

[Lobo]

.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm getting sick and tired of giving life lessons to wet-behind-the-ears rookie cops.

I was never in fear of my life. If I had been I would have killed the mutts outright. I was being attacked, which if I had not acted as I did would have BECOME a situation where my life would have been in danger.

Just so I'm getting this straight. You were "attacked" and yet not in fear for your life? And yet you thought it was perfectly acceptable to discharge a firearm in a residential neighborhood, during a time in which children were coming home from school.

You fired in a "safe" direction, directly towards the ground, and I'm sure you had checked (all the while the dog attached to your leg) the area for rocks, or any other type of material that may lead to a ricochet, right?

If a dirtbag points a gun at me I don't have to wait until he actually fires at me to defend myself.

As to firing a "warning shot," yes, junior, I went to the police academy too. And I know that in law enforcement we never fire warning shots..

Wait, are you saying that you aren't in fear for your life when a person pulls a gun on you? Only after they fire in your direction, does that "fear" occur? That's hardcore, you point a gun in my direction, I'm in fear for my life.

A warning shot occurs when a shot is fired to warn an assailant (or, in the old days, a fleeing suspect) that the next shot will be fired for fatal effect. It is an act of utter futility against an adversary that is incapable of rational thought.

I wasn't warning the dogs that I was going to shoot them if they didn't break off their attack. They're DOGS! They can't understand that. I was doing the same thing that you do to a human suspect that is out of control and can't be reasoned with...I was TASERING them.

Sorry Liberty, if you can't see how un-alike discharging a firearm is from deploying a taser, then THAT is a problem. I have yet to see documentation of persons killed from the wayward prong of a taser.
This isnt the "old days" .... you discharge a firearm for one reason, and it's not to scare anyone or anything.

My goal was to overwhelm with pain so that they would want nothing more than to get away from me...and that's exactly what happened, with no blood being spilled, mine OR the dogs.

So your intent was to cause them pain and have them run away. Well, they have tools for exactly that sort of thing. It's called a dog whistle. They are for behavior modification, and can be quite painful to dogs.
A firearm is not a dog whistle, nor are their intended uses, similar.

So I should have just stayed in the house and waited until I heard screaming while some grade school kid was having their face ripped off? That might be Carmel PD's way...it's not mine.

No most certainly not. If you believed someone was in danger, hey call 911. And then do what you needed to. Youre not a police officer anymore, and based on the narrative of all the things you did that day, if you had of called an officer, he would have been on scene before you felt your ever needed to discharge your firearm; and if he wasn't, so be it BUT, you had the time to do so.

You parrot your procedure manual very well. When you have another decade of law enforcement experience under your belt, you come back and second-guess me.

I respect you service, I surely do, but using longevity in service as proof of your logic being more sound, is hardly convincing. I've seen guys that have 20+ years that I wouldn't allow to back me up, if I had pulled over a busload of nuns; so please spare me. Case and point, about longevity, the officer that you dealt with that day, the one that you thought was so "young," has about the same amount of time at CPD as you did in Cincy, and he's a supervisor too.

Don't take this as anything personal. I'm simply, despite your tongue in cheek comments, showing you the flip side of the coin. All the points I made are valid, and are of sound logic. I told them to you in a respectful manner. You're an old school cop, so maybe the lil "rookie" "junior," or "wet behind the ears" quips are indicative of how you did the job. I however, extend courtesy to all I encounter, that's how I've been taught to do the job.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Pard...I was pissed when I wrote that. I admit it. I don't usually fly off at the handle like that. I don't like being pissed off enough to write something like that.

But what I did was the right thing to do under the circumstances, and I'm getting tired of having my name, my reputation, and my checkbook dragged through the mud.

Forget that I said it.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Pard...I was pissed when I wrote that. I admit it. I don't usually fly off at the handle like that. I don't like being pissed off enough to write something like that.

But what I did was the right thing to do under the circumstances, and I'm getting tired of having my name, my reputation, and my checkbook dragged through the mud.

Forget that I said it.

Brother, I don't think less of you at all. If you believed me to be attepting to "drag your name through the mud," I apologize. Such was not my intention. We can agree to disagree about a great many things. Lord knows I don't have all the answers, but my opinion is my own. Feel free to disagree. I encourage civil disagreement.