Infidel

[iChokePeople]

I was under the impression that the extremists used the term freely and pretty loosely. So understanding the correct definition I wonder if the Muslim world ad hears to the correct definition or they banter the term around as much as we do?

Extremists of all types do things like this with words, beliefs, philosophies, etc. Their misuse doesn't change the true meaning/belief/whatever. Americans tend to hear a whole lot of what a very small group of Muslims think. They are not representative of the whole. Would you feel comfortable having the world judge your beliefs from their reading about or hearing from the Westboro Baptist Church?

 

[iChokePeople]

I don't see why this is such a big issue. I don't really care if I fit the definition or not.

Oh, my mistake -- I didn't realize we were on "only big issue" Tuesday. No trivial stuff today. Back to your regularly scheduled INGO.

My issue, which is definitely not big, so maybe not acceptable for discussion, is that we mostly display ignorance when we run around with the "kafir" tag. As noted in this thread, there are exceptions.

 

[Squirt239]

I don't see why this is such a big issue. I don't really care if I fit the definition or not.

This is getting repped

 

[Kutnupe14]

Oh, my mistake -- I didn't realize we were on "only big issue" Tuesday. No trivial stuff today. Back to your regularly scheduled INGO.

I lol'd

 

[Kutnupe14]

This is getting repped

Hell, why not

 

[KG1]

Oh, my mistake -- I didn't realize we were on "only big issue" Tuesday. No trivial stuff today. Back to your regularly scheduled INGO.

My issue, which is definitely not big, so maybe not acceptable for discussion, is that we mostly display ignorance when we run around with the "kafir" tag. As noted in this thread, there are exceptions.

It's not that, you can bring up any issue you want. I was just making an observation that a few posters were acting like it was such a big deal that they we're considered to be a "kafir" by definition.

 

[iChokePeople]

It's not that, you can bring up any issue you want. I was just making an observation that a few posters were acting like it was such a big deal that they we're considered to be a "kafir" by definition.

 

[TopDog]

Extremists of all types do things like this with words, beliefs, philosophies, etc. Their misuse doesn't change the true meaning/belief/whatever. Americans tend to hear a whole lot of what a very small group of Muslims think. They are not representative of the whole. Would you feel comfortable having the world judge your beliefs from their reading about or hearing from the Westboro Baptist Church?

Yes I understand what you are saying about extremists. What I'm wondering is does the Muslim world as a whole miss use the word also. I don't spend much time on Muslim web sites etc.. But I'm thinking the technical meaning of the word has been lost on the Muslims as well. Just trying to make a point that the popular meaning of the word here is the same all over the world.

 

[iChokePeople]

Yes I understand what you are saying about extremists. What I'm wondering is does the Muslim world as a whole miss use the word also. I don't spend much time on Muslim web sites etc.. But I'm thinking the technical meaning of the word has been lost on the Muslims as well. Just trying to make a point that the popular meaning of the word here is the same all over the world.

I don't think you can generalize like that any more than you can generalize about what the Christian world as a whole thinks about something. If I were to generalize based on my experience with average, everyday Muslims, I'd say most don't give it that much thought. They live their lives and try very hard to live their religion -- the real one, not the one portrayed by the extremists or imagined by us.

 

[Kutnupe14]

It's not that, you can bring up any issue you want. I was just making an observation that a few posters were acting like it was such a big deal that they we're considered to be a "kafir" by definition.

You got the ball rollin' mr "bean pie"

 

[thebishopp]

Yes the term "infidel" is not used strictly by muslims:

"William Linn, a Dutch Reformed minister in New York City, made perhaps the most violent of all attacks on Jefferson's character, all of it based on religious matters. In a pamphlet entitled Serious Considerations on the Election of a President, Linn "accused Jefferson of the heinous crimes of not believing in divine revelation and of a design to destroy religion and `introduce immorality'" (Padover, p. 116). He referred to Jefferson as a "true infidel" and insisted that "(a)n infidel like Jefferson could not, should not, be elected" (Padover, p. 117). He concluded the pamphlet with this appeal for "Christians to defeat the `infidel' from Virginia"

The term can be used to describe anyone who does not believe as you do.

 

[iChokePeople]

Absolutely true, but remember that there's a difference between the word 'kafir' and the word 'infidel'.

Yes the term "infidel" is not used strictly by muslims:

"William Linn, a Dutch Reformed minister in New York City, made perhaps the most violent of all attacks on Jefferson's character, all of it based on religious matters. In a pamphlet entitled Serious Considerations on the Election of a President, Linn "accused Jefferson of the heinous crimes of not believing in divine revelation and of a design to destroy religion and `introduce immorality'" (Padover, p. 116). He referred to Jefferson as a "true infidel" and insisted that "(a)n infidel like Jefferson could not, should not, be elected" (Padover, p. 117). He concluded the pamphlet with this appeal for "Christians to defeat the `infidel' from Virginia"

The term can be used to describe anyone who does not believe as you do.

 

[thebishopp]

Absolutely true, but remember that there's a difference between the word 'kafir' and the word 'infidel'.

Yes... I think the Jewish version is "gentile" (in reference to non-jewish)?

 

[iChokePeople]

Yes... I think the Jewish version is "gentile" (in reference to non-jewish)?

I'm not familiar with either the language or religion enough to know what subtleties might be there with the term gentile, but with my understanding of it, non-Jewish covers it. "Kafir" isn't quite so simple, though. It has requirements, for those who really understand it and use it correctly. Not just "doesn't accept Islam/isn't a Muslim". So similar, but not exactly the same, as I understand the term "gentile".

 

[traderdan]

A quote from a very popular book...."He that provideth not for his own is worse than an infidel."

 

[KG1]

You got the ball rollin' mr "bean pie"

What's up with the "mr bean pie" stuff? btw..that was a true story.

 

[Kutnupe14]

What's up with the "mr bean pie" stuff? btw..that was a true story.

I was just referencing the post, nothing more

 

[Kagnew]

Actually, I suspect NONE of you fits the more correct definition of "kafir". It's thrown around a lot lately, but to really be considered a 'kafir' by an educated Muslim, you have to have been presented Islam in an acceptable manner, one in which you had ample opportunity to accept it, and rejected it. To a more educated Muslim, Christians are generally not considered 'kafir', but a term that translates to "people of the book" (or "people of the scripture"). But that kind of takes the fun out of all of the shirts and hats that are so popular now.

That ain't the way I've always heard (bloody) kafir used. I've always found it to be interchangeable with "wog".

 

[iChokePeople]

That ain't the way I've always heard (bloody) kafir used. I've always found it to be interchangeable with "wog".

Yes, there's also that definition. I can't speak to that one other than that it doesn't SEEM to come from the Arabic root of the word we've been discussing. Lots of conjecture about it, and it may have somehow [d]evolved from it, but may just be an unfortunate coincidence. Dunno. It's generally considered quite derogatory, though, and has little to do with the rest of this discussion. Wikipedia thinks that someone along the way misinterpreted the term to be about race rather than beliefs, and that it went from there. Sounds plausible enough, but has nothing to do with the Arabic/Islamic version, and is probably not the meaning intended by those who wear the patch.

 

[Sylvain]

Infidels according to Islam are non believers, and I'm fine with that.

Yes, Christians are NOT infidels like many think.