In a first, EPA cuts ethanol standard

[mrjarrell]

Well, I must say that it's about damned time the EPA showed some common sense and listened to us. They're backing away from those ludicrous high levels of ethanol that they were demanding for vehicles and lowering them to a slightly better standard. Of course the people who were benefiting from the burning of our food supply for fuel are squealing like the stuck pigs they are. Hopefully this will all be done away with at some future point. If the market wants ethanol diluted gasoline it will be provided, if it doesn't....then it won't.

In a first, EPA cuts ethanol standard - Washington Times

 

[atvdave]

If the market wants ethanol diluted gasoline it will be provided, if it doesn't....then it won't.

In a first, EPA cuts ethanol standard - Washington Times

agree... let the market drive the economy, not the government.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

agree... let the market drive the economy, not the government.

"Big oil" vs. "big ag" vs. "big green"...and we pay the price.

 

[cubbetm]

Lets get rid of it all together. Worse mileage. Higher prices on food. More damage done to vehicles. It's not needed

 

[gmcman355]

I'm not sure I understand the hatred for ethanol. while I agree the government needs to stay out of it as far as mandating it be there what's so wrong with it. You want food prices to come down quit exporting a metric crap ton of corn so that there Is a false shortage. also from what I have heard there is the ability to make ethanol from the corn and be left with high quality livestock feed in the form of distillers grain. Not saying that all places do this just that it is possible. I believe ethanol is a viable addition to the renewable energy platform the US needs. Not a sole replacement for gas but a help along the way for sure.

 

[atvdave]

no one here is saying that you can not produce ethanol.... we are only saying is let the market drive the demand. No hatred to ethanol intended. The Gov. should bug out of it.

 

[Principal Skinr]

I don't like it for the following reasons....bad for engines, bad for fuel economy, lower power.

 

[jve153]

the only people that benefit from putting ethanol in the fuel supply are the people who grow corn.

 

[wagyu52]

the only people that benefit from putting ethanol in the fuel supply are the people who grow corn.

So you think a 60 billion dollar a year industry only effects corn growers? The truth is corn growers are the last people to benefit from ethanol. Many, many hands are in the cookie jar first.

 

[Bunnykid68]

So you think a 60 billion dollar a year industry only effects corn growers? The truth is corn growers are the last people to benefit from ethanol. Many, many hands are in the cookie jar first.

Wait...what? Don't they need the corn 1st to make the ethanol? , that's why I ask questions.

 

[wagyu52]

It's really easy to blame ethanol on the high costs of food, but weather is mostly to blame for the increase in food prices. Many ethanol plants have been shut down in the last few years do to the high prices of corn.

 

[wagyu52]

Wait...what? Don't they need the corn 1st to make the ethanol? , that's why I ask questions.

True, but that's not my point. Ethanol provides an opportunity to make more money than just the sale of corn, I'm talking as a country. Ethanol provides so much more opportunity to make money for people here than exporting corn, that's what would happen with the glut of corn if you do away with Ethanol, it would be exported.

 

[Bigtanker]

I don't like it for the following reasons....bad for engines, bad for fuel economy, lower power.

Lower power? It increases power. Why do you think drag cars and race cars run on alcohol? It has an octane rating of 117.

Another effect taking ethanol out of gasoline is the cost will go UP!

Ethanol is more that $1 cheaper per gallon that gas. It also has a very high octane rating. The majority of pure gasoline for regular unleaded is 84 octane. 10% ethanol brings it up to 87. So if the ethanol goes away, your gas price will go up quite a bit, because now the refineries have to make pure 87 octane which costs more and the ethanol discount goes away. Another reason for big oil to jack up the prices. And they will.

 

[ZombieApocolypse]

Lower power? It increases power. Why do you think drag cars and race cars run on alcohol? It has an octane rating of 117.

Another effect taking ethanol out of gasoline is the cost will go UP!

Ethanol is more that $1 cheaper per gallon that gas. It also has a very high octane rating. The majority of pure gasoline for regular unleaded is 84 octane. 10% ethanol brings it up to 87. So if the ethanol goes away, your gas price will go up quite a bit, because now the refineries have to make pure 87 octane which costs more and the ethanol discount goes away. Another reason for big oil to jack up the prices. And they will.

Source? I could swear i remember hearing it takes 2-3 gallons of Diesel to make 1 gallon of ethanol. While it may have a higher octane value (i've never heard that before) don't cars get less efficiency out of it? Not to mention the effects ethanol has on the car itself.

Big oil doesnt need reasons to jack up costs. Hell half of the gas we use was drilled here, which was supposed to lower costs but hasnt. Some of this gas was drilled on public land but we dont see any money from that either. I doubt we would see a noticable change in costs to our gas if ethanol was outright removed. If there was an increase in cost it would probobly be offset by better gas mileage and lack of damage to the vehicle

 

[Stschil]

Lower power? It increases power. Why do you think drag cars and race cars run on alcohol? It has an octane rating of 117.

Another effect taking ethanol out of gasoline is the cost will go UP!

Ethanol is more that $1 cheaper per gallon that gas. It also has a very high octane rating. The majority of pure gasoline for regular unleaded is 84 octane. 10% ethanol brings it up to 87. So if the ethanol goes away, your gas price will go up quite a bit, because now the refineries have to make pure 87 octane which costs more and the ethanol discount goes away. Another reason for big oil to jack up the prices. And they will.

Alcohol in a normal passenger vehicle engine will eat fuel lines, ruin seals, and eventually cause catastrophic failure, if it doesn't spring a fuel leak and catch fire first. The E85 capable vehicle are specially fitted to deal with the corrosive effects.

NHRA and IHRA Alcohol burning motors are purpose built, ultra high performance engines that get completely torn down and rebuilt after every run at considerable cost (between $2000 and $4500 depending on the wear of hard parts such as clutches, superchargers, pistons, cylinder sleeves, cranks, rods, etc)

Ethanol is more expensive to produce (at least at the moment) than gasoline, the only reason why E85 is cheaper is due to Govt subsidies. If the true cost were reflected, it wouldn't be attractive at all.

Yes, I understand that Oil companies might raise fuel costs, but I believe that is probably more because our $ is becoming more and more worthless with every passing minute. As I understand it, the US EXPORTS more refined fuels than it keeps for domestic use. This plays a part in the pricing, also add to that to ever more restrictive EPA Regulatory actions. The Oil companies are still only showing approx 10% profit margin. Compare that to what Nestlé makes on it's Bottled Water operations.

Because of Corn prices, the growing other food grains has been in the decline. I was once told by a Purdue Ag Specislist, that there wasn't enough viable growing land in the US to meet the former proposed EPA mandates for ethanol production, even if every available acre was converted to Corn.

 

[Delmar]

It's really easy to blame ethanol on the high costs of food, but weather is mostly to blame for the increase in food prices. Many ethanol plants have been shut down in the last few years do to the high prices of corn.

It would be a lot more efficient to produce ethanol from sugar cane but, of coarse, the weird system of sugar subsidies gets in the way of that.

 

[Boiled Owl]

I think the best summery I read was: Ethanol is viable when crude is $80+ barrel. Crude oil cost of production was $25 / barrel. Futures on crude were around $135 at the time. Profit is the name of the game. Best margin is on your cheapest cost of production.

There is no way an alternative can get established. All "oil" has to do is pump more, reduce the price and keep oil at a slight advantage to the alternate. Alternates are effected by their own supply issues. As said above many ethanol plants were shut down last year.

Ma and Pa don't give a damn about the price of corn when it was less than $2/ bu. So with anything cheap, lets make it into fuel, now the demand comes back, and the price goes up.

There are no Armies, or Navies protecting my corn fields. Far as I know no american youths have gone to foreign countries whole and came home broken or bagged to protect corn fields.

Do (the anti ethanol, we burn our food crowd) ever figure in the real cost of the oil status quo is?? Factor the military actions to protect oil and add it to the pump price.

 

[CarmelHP]

True, but that's not my point. Ethanol provides an opportunity to make more money than just the sale of corn, I'm talking as a country. Ethanol provides so much more opportunity to make money for people here than exporting corn, that's what would happen with the glut of corn if you do away with Ethanol, it would be exported.

You do know how free markets work, right? If the highest economic use of corn is for food, the market will drive corn to food production. If the highest economic use is for fuel then the market will drive corn there. If the government interferes to mandate or incentivize one of the other then will get artificially high prices on one and artificially low prices on the other. This is not rocket science.

 

[Bunnykid68]

You do know how free markets work, right? If the highest economic use of corn is for food, the market will drive corn to food production. If the highest economic use is for fuel then the market will drive corn there. If the government interferes to mandate or incentivize one of the other then will get artificially high prices on one and artificially low prices on the other. This is not rocket science.

Yep, they have been subsidizing the hell out of ethanol.

 

[Bennettjh]

I don't like it for the following reasons....bad for engines, bad for fuel economy, lower power.

I agree. My vehicles are too old to run on that.