IMPD OC legal updates.

[Bunnykid68]

16 post in a thread started by a LEO and no cop bashing yet? seems to be off its game today.

I got nothin right now

Great news. However, I believe it is still legal for IMPD to stop someone to check LTCH status, just against policy. Great news nonetheless and I hope that other departments follow the lead.

IANAL, but my interpretation of the law says that due to it being illegal to carry without a license, that makes it legal for a stop. It may be against policy, but I don't think it woukd be illegal. Cant wait for the official ruling on it.

I agree with this, but why would there be a ruling on it if it is just department policy?

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Thanks for letting us know, Denny. I appreciate your willingness to keep us in the loop.

 

[stephen87]

Because someone was apparently arrested after being stopped for this very thing. It's going to court so we'll hear a ruling on it. As much as it pains me to say it, I hope he appeals it as high as he can so that we can have not just one judges opinion but some true case law on the subject.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Hmmm ... do you have to have the license on your person while carrying? ... or just have been issued one (currently valid)?

 

[88GT]

Based on the plethora of discussions here, I also thought it odd that it was "illegal" to stop just for OCing. But I'll take it. Should be simple enough to instruct officers that in the absence of any other indicators of criminal behavior/intent, the act of OCing alone isn't worth the hassle to LE or otherwise law-abiding citizens. More than that though, I'm glad it's being addressed. I almost value consistency in enforcement over the "right" policy. A wrong policy consistently enforced would be remedied soon enough in the courts I would think. But no clear policy and an inconsistent (across the department) approach can always be brushed aside as an error on the individual LEO's part, not the department. But thumbs up to IMPD for taking this step. Next: official policy. Whoswithme?

 

[mrjarrell]

Nice to hear that IMPD is taking steps to make carrying in Marion county a bit easier and less fearful for people. Thanks for the heads up, Denny.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Good to hear! Wish it was stated before a certain Subway incident...

 

[the1kidd03]

Good to hear! Wish it was stated before a certain Subway incident...

That was ISP though...

 

[rockhopper46038]

Thank you for letting us know, Denny!

 

[lonehoosier]

I would still show your LTCH or telling them your LTCH number. There is no case law in Indiana that proves this. I think this can get LTCH holder in some trouble not showing it or telling them your license mumber that are outside of INDY.

 

[jwh20]

I find that interesting, Denny. I mean, statutorily, we carry ILLEGALLY unless we possess a license, right? So, it would follow that it would be entirely within the purview of LEOs to verify the status of anyone carrying. Like I said, interesting. Unfortunately, there are a ton of smaller departments elsewhere in the state that won't follow your department's lead, and likely won't even hear about it.

Thanks for posting this update!

Yes but I think the intention of the legislature is that the mere fact of carrying (OC or CC) is NOT a presumption that you are doing so illegally. It's also illegal to operate a motor vehicle on public roads without a DL, but a stop ONLY to verify a driver has a valid DL is not legal. Or a stop ONLY to check a car's VIN # for a possible stolen car. It's supposed to be a PRESUMPTION of LEGALITY in our nation - of course that's debatable these days.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yes but I think the intention of the legislature is that the mere fact of carrying (OC or CC) is NOT a presumption that you are doing so illegally

I have to ask, where is the evidence of that intent that you allege from the legislative record or the Indiana Code itself?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes but I think the intention of the legislature is that the mere fact of carrying (OC or CC) is NOT a presumption that you are doing so illegally. It's also illegal to operate a motor vehicle on public roads without a DL, but a stop ONLY to verify a driver has a valid DL is not legal. Or a stop ONLY to check a car's VIN # for a possible stolen car. It's supposed to be a PRESUMPTION of LEGALITY in our nation - of course that's debatable these days.

Can you a commercial motor vehicle be stopped for inspection absent a traffic infraction?
Can a game warden stop you if you are fishing to check for your fishing license? Check your stringer for compliance with limits, etc?

Driver's licenses aren't the only game in town, and while its handy for making the point its far from case law.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Are you saying the officer teaching this new "mantra" is basing it on laws of other states?

I agree. Any policy worthy of being policy should be on paper otherwise it's too easy to (excuse the pun) cop out of it.

Yes, its based on case law from other states which don't require a permit for open carry. I Googled his cited cases during a break and brought it up, but didn't get any real answer from him. I didn't feel like arguing and disrupting the entire in-service, but there is still no relevant case law in Indiana that prohibits this activity.

 

[88GT]

I would still show your LTCH or telling them your LTCH number. There is no case law in Indiana that proves this. I think this can get LTCH holder in some trouble not showing it or telling them your license mumber that are outside of INDY.

Why would you show it? The point is that (presumably) you're not even going to be hassled for it. IF you are asked, then, yes, provide the info. Pretty sure that is one thing all of INGO agrees on (if that's possible). Denny is telling us IMPD is being advised not to ask if OC is the only reason they have to "suspect" anything.

 

[88GT]

Yes, its based on case law from other states which don't require a permit for open carry. I Googled his cited cases during a break and brought it up, but didn't get any real answer from him. I didn't feel like arguing and disrupting the entire in-service, but there is still no relevant case law in Indiana that prohibits this activity.

So are you quibbling with his label of "illegal" with regards to stopping just for the act of OCing? Or are you in disagreement with the suggestion not to hassle otherwise law-abiding citizens who have chosen to exercise their rights?

 

[Trigger Time]

Thanks Denny! It's great news and I'm proud to be in impds beat.

also it's nice for you guys that there will now be a uniform standard for the department. No more chance of rolling up to a scene to back up a unknowing cop who's harassing a legal gun owner.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yes, its based on case law from other states which don't require a permit for open carry. I Googled his cited cases during a break and brought it up, but didn't get any real answer from him. I didn't feel like arguing and disrupting the entire in-service, but there is still no relevant case law in Indiana that prohibits this activity.

So is it that hard for you to just shake off the pride and do what your told by your employer? It seems like your attitude is one of not liking to be told you can't do something. I'm asking civily and not saying for sure thats what your problem with this is.

 

[lonehoosier]

Why would you show it? The point is that (presumably) you're not even going to be hassled for it. IF you are asked, then, yes, provide the info. Pretty sure that is one thing all of INGO agrees on (if that's possible). Denny is telling us IMPD is being advised not to ask if OC is the only reason they have to "suspect" anything.

Because the law is clear that if you are asked you are obligated to show it or tell them your license number. Some one is going to read this that is outside the Indy area is going to think a LEO can't ask them to see there LTCH if they are OCing.

 

[Rhoadmar]

Can they stop you when driving a car to check for a drivers license?