If Russia can get it right, why can't we?

[10ring]

Flat tax is as bad as fair tax and both are theft no matter how flat or fair.

Explain.

 

[CTS]

Explain.

I think he just did.

I'm fine with some government, though they do always tend to creep don't they?

My biggest problem with our current tax system isn't how much we pay, it's that not one of us has any idea what we're actually paying and it facilitates corruption. If you think you know what you pay in taxes, tell me how much tax is in a loaf of bread. Don't forget to count the farmers property taxes, fuel taxes, employment taxes, all of his suppliers taxes, all of the taxes paid by everyone else from farm to shelf....

 

[Lupin3rd]

Explain.

It's quite simple. The only morally legitimate transactions are when all parties are voluntarily participating. For instance, lets say you're selling a handgun and I want to buy it. We agree that I hand you a sum of money and you hand me the handgun. If I snatched it and ran off, it isn't a legitimate transaction because your participation was involuntary to say the least. Taxation has one willing participant and one unwilling participant. The only reason it occurs is because of the literal (and I by no means mean figurative) guns that the government has. No matter how you structure the tax system, it is still the moral equivalent of theft.

 

[10ring]

I think he just did.

I'm fine with some government, though they do always tend to creep don't they?

My biggest problem with our current tax system isn't how much we pay, it's that not one of us has any idea what we're actually paying and it facilitates corruption. If you think you know what you pay in taxes, tell me how much tax is in a loaf of bread. Don't forget to count the farmers property taxes, fuel taxes, employment taxes, all of his suppliers taxes, all of the taxes paid by everyone else from farm to shelf....

Food, such as a loaf of bread, is tax exempt in Indiana.

And I know plenty about taxes. I have operated a small business in this state for over 20 years. I employ multiple people currently with an annual payroll expense of well over a million dollars.

I personally pay more in taxes than several hard working people make in a year, and am the evil 1%.

 

[CarmelHP]

Food, such as a loaf of bread, is tax exempt in Indiana.

To be more accurate, it is exempt from sales and use tax. I believe the poster you responded to was referring to the taxes that were included in the cost of inputs to bringing that loaf to market from growing the wheat to final sale.

 

[T.Lex]

You operate under the premise that government is necessary and has the moral authority to enact social control.

Indeed, I do.

The opposite assertion is anarchy and no social order whatsoever.

In an Hegelian dialectic kind of way, by combining the 2 premises, we end up with the government we deserve.

 

[Iroquois]

Taxation and death...two unavoidable situations. Tell me how to avoid death(in the physical
realm) , I'll come up with a scheme to get out of taxes...

 

[poptab]

Indeed, I do.

The opposite assertion is anarchy and no social order whatsoever.

In an Hegelian dialectic kind of way, by combining the 2 premises, we end up with the government we deserve.

Anarchy neither implies nor requires 'no social order'.

 

[T.Lex]

Anarchy neither implies nor requires 'no social order'.

Well, if you count "might makes right" as social order, then you're right.

IMHO, anarchy is a political vacuum. Nature abhors a vacuum and some sort of governance evolves (regardless of moral authority) that imposes or codifies some sort of social order.

 

[poptab]

Explain.

Flat tax and fair tax are neither flat nor fair. They may sound good in general but they are terrible in detail. If you want a closer look.

Taxation is theft. It presumes that the government has a higher claim on our property than we do.

 

[sonofagun]

Deleted!

 

[poptab]

Well, if you count "might makes right" as social order, then you're right.

IMHO, anarchy is a political vacuum. Nature abhors a vacuum and some sort of governance evolves (regardless of moral authority) that imposes or codifies some sort of social order.

How is what we have now not "might makes right"?

 

[88GT]

My avatar should clear up your confusion. Taxation is theft by another name.
I am against any form of tax reform that is revenue neutral. I am for any tax reform that reduces revenue.

I've run into the voluntaryists before. As unrealistic and ignorant (as in ignoring, not unknowing) of reality as the socialists and their version of utopia.

EDIT: I'd argue you already have voluntary anyway. You are here voluntarily, and as such have agreed to abide by the norms and mores and laws of the society. If you are free to leave, it is voluntary.

 

[CTS]

Food, such as a loaf of bread, is tax exempt in Indiana.

And I know plenty about taxes. I have operated a small business in this state for over 20 years. I employ multiple people currently with an annual payroll expense of well over a million dollars.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about, people hear "there's no tax on food" and assume that to be the case but it couldn't be farther from reality.

One of the awesome features of a flat/fair tax would be the reduction in prices we should see on everything, and food could still be exempt, so it would be a major boon to the less well healed among us.

 

[ViperJock]

with a 10 or 12 percent flat tax across the board we would most likely have more money....considering companies like GE made billions and paid millions to accountants to avoid paying any taxes.

Yes, but think of all the accounting jobs they created... Isn't that what we want? Money staying in the private sector paying middle class workers Those accountants pay taxes... lol.

 

[T.Lex]

How is what we have now not "might makes right"?

How can I prove a negative?

What evidence do you have that our social order reflects a "might makes right" sense of authority?

I do still believe that, in a representative democracy like ours, it is elections that are more important that arms ("arms" as in firearms). Sure, my party didn't win "the big one" but it remains a marketplace of ideas, IMHO.

 

[poptab]

How can I prove a negative?

What evidence do you have that our social order reflects a "might makes right" sense of authority?

I do still believe that, in a representative democracy like ours, it is elections that are more important that arms ("arms" as in firearms). Sure, my party didn't win "the big one" but it remains a marketplace of ideas, IMHO.

Maybe it was poorly worded. All I was doing was pointing out your assumption that what we have now is not 'might makes right'. What happens when the government violates the constitution? Since the government gets to be the sole interpreter of the constitution it interprets whatever violations it is guilty of as being constitutional. That is at least the historical answer. Sure there are some few examples of rollback but two steps forward one step back is still going forward.

 

[poptab]

I've run into the voluntaryists before. As unrealistic and ignorant (as in ignoring, not unknowing) of reality as the socialists and their version of utopia.

EDIT: I'd argue you already have voluntary anyway. You are here voluntarily, and as such have agreed to abide by the norms and mores and laws of the society. If you are free to leave, it is voluntary.

I am here by time and circumstance not because I chose to be born to a middle class family living in the United States. Just because I happen to be standing or sitting in some arbitrary geographical location does not mean I consent to being ruled over and having my property expropriated. In fact, I am saying to you that I do not consent to having my property expropriated and used to fund drone strikes.

A healthy moral reckoning would have you demonstrate your right to expropriate me and use the proceeds for illegal wars and torture before I have to demonstrate my right to sit here unmolested.

 

[T.Lex]

Maybe it was poorly worded. All I was doing was pointing out your assumption that what we have now is not 'might makes right'. What happens when the government violates the constitution? Since the government gets to be the sole interpreter of the constitution it interprets whatever violations it is guilty of as being constitutional. That is at least the historical answer. Sure there are some few examples of rollback but two steps forward one step back is still going forward.

Well, if you look narrowly at gun rights issues (which I think is probably in the forefront for many of us), there was a time when guns were registered, ammunition was rationed and tracked, and people were perfectly content with it. Even here in Indiana, there was a time when people were legally forbidden from carrying firearms when traveling (although that was basically a prohibition on people who "weren't from around here").

We are far more "free" now than we were then, on that issue.

I do understand what you are getting at. But, the basic system that was set up (back when there were significantly more restrictions on firearms ownership) still basically work. The US Supreme Court is now establishing the personal right to bear arms, and more good stuff is coming from that branch of the gov't.

So, I think we remain in good shape. But, to be sure, we must be ever vigilant. (Not necessarily vigilant(e).)

 

[poptab]

Well, if you look narrowly at gun rights issues (which I think is probably in the forefront for many of us), there was a time when guns were registered, ammunition was rationed and tracked, and people were perfectly content with it. Even here in Indiana, there was a time when people were legally forbidden from carrying firearms when traveling (although that was basically a prohibition on people who "weren't from around here").

We are far more "free" now than we were then, on that issue.

I do understand what you are getting at. But, the basic system that was set up (back when there were significantly more restrictions on firearms ownership) still basically work. The US Supreme Court is now establishing the personal right to bear arms, and more good stuff is coming from that branch of the gov't.

So, I think we remain in good shape. But, to be sure, we must be ever vigilant. (Not necessarily vigilant(e).)

I dont imagine many around here would agree that obamacare is 'good stuff'.

Maybe I am a vouluntaryist, unrealistic, ignorant, pessimist. But at least I am consistent.