IDPA vs USPSA, making a choice

[geo2450]

These games are training. They teach proficient and efficient gun handling, rapid and accurate target engagement, and introduce stress into the shooting situation.

I'm not suggesting that these games will teach anyone everything they need to know. But I question anyone who dismisses the benefits of these games with practical roots.

Agreed. All I'm saying is the games we typically play don't tactically prepare us for a target that shoots back. They do teach us how to shoot proficiently, but to think we're practicing anything but that could very well get us in trouble. Don't confuse the games with real life tactics!

Play the game if that's your thing. If you want to prepare for the worst case scenario, get some serious training along with the games. The more you know, and the more you use the weapon, the better off you will be.

 

[bwframe]

USPSA and IDPA are both "games" and should be considered just that. I believe anyone who thinks differently should research FBI gunfight stats.
If you know how to shoot, and shoot quickly, you will be ahead of the curve when and if it gets serious without a timer. If you want to be cabable of handling real world situations, get real world training.
Just my thoughts so lets go shooting and have FUN !

First of all, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you!

Just a little word to the wise, friend. All the really good gamer vs tactical (your competition will get you killed) arguments take place in the "Tactics and Training" sub-forum. This is the "Shooting Sports" sub-forum. We pretty much talk about our games here, avoiding the "how it will get us killed" part. I know, it is kind of head in the sand, but that's how we do it.

 

[Coach]

The Jefferson County Kentucky Sheriffs department trains at the Silver Creek Conservation Club in Sellersburg, Indiana. After our state match there in June we were asked to leave three of the ten stages in tact so that they could be used as qualification in the next month by the department.

Gun handling, speed and accuracy are skills that are built by these games. That sounds like training to me. This past weekend I shot some real world drills with students in a class I was assisting with. I did not notice my gaming skills lagging behind the real world crowd. Since I can shoot on the move, draw pretty fast and hit what I am aiming at it was not that hard to add doing it behind cover.

As bwframe mentioned this is the shooting sports subform not the super macho, butt kicking world, have won the OK corral gunfight three times crowd. Take the real world somewhere else. We are talking games here. Better yet come out to the match at Riley this weekend and demonstrate how good real world skills are.

 

[KMan]

I personally would not even think about entering Coach's house unannounced with anything less than a "tactical" M1 Abrams. I've seen him shoot these "games" a few times.

 

[geo2450]

Hmmmmm,

Reading over my post, (I guess that’s what it’s called) I:

Don’t see where I criticized games or tactical pursuits. As a matter of fact, gaming is great!
2) Don’t see where I suggested sport shooters would get themselves or someone else killed because of their highly developed gaming skills.
3) Did say shooting sports will “put you ahead of the curve” if quick accurate gun skills are ever needed.
4) Did say “go shoot and have fun”!
5) Did use the word “tactical” in the “sport shooting” forum. I can’t tell you how sorry I am for my newbie, computer illiterate oversight. I can insure you it won’t happen again.

And, friends, I don’t feel welcomed to INgunowners! However, since it's difficult to read the tone of the written word, I intend no malice to anyone and I shouldn't have read something into the original question that I shouldn't have. I guess the "assumption" on my part proved the old adage.

 

[Coach]

Agreed. All I'm saying is the games we typically play don't tactically prepare us for a target that shoots back. They do teach us how to shoot proficiently, but to think we're practicing anything but that could very well get us in trouble. Don't confuse the games with real life tactics!

Play the game if that's your thing. If you want to prepare for the worst case scenario, get some serious training along with the games. The more you know, and the more you use the weapon, the better off you will be.

This post is the problem. "serious" training is what throws the insult. If you don't want to count the games here in the shooting sports forum as serious that is your right, but don't come in here are throw statements such as that around and then whine about not feeling welcome.

No one here has ever said the games teach tactics. But there is more to training than tactics.

 

[geo2450]

Coach,
I am truely sorry I offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention. I don't want to get in a pis_ing contest and if what I posted was wrong I appologize. I don't know what else I can do. I am not whining. Only saying I didn't feel welcomed because I said something you believe is wrong. That's cool because maybe it was! It's my fault for not understanding what should and shouldn't be expressed here. I accept responsibility for my error. As I said, it won't happen again. For the record, I admire the skills all competition shooters display! More than you know.

 

[Coach]

Coach,
I am truely sorry I offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention. I don't want to get in a pis_ing contest and if what I posted was wrong I appologize. I don't know what else I can do. I am not whining. Only saying I didn't feel welcomed because I said something you believe is wrong. That's cool because maybe it was! It's my fault for not understanding what should and shouldn't be expressed here. I accept responsibility for my error. As I said, it won't happen again. For the record, I admire the skills all competition shooters display! More than you know.

Ok. No problem and let's move on. It is a sore subject and that is not your fault. I am probably over sensitive on the subject because time and time folks want to set aside all skills of the competition world and talk about real world and serious skills and many times those folks lack skills.

So let me try and get past the wave of hostility that I threw out. This site is a great site with many great people on it. There is plenty to learn on this site as well. Hopefully you will give it a chance despite what has been a rough start.

 

[geo2450]

Thank You ! I mean that.
Since we have opened up a few of our inner feelings I would like to pm you but I don't know how LOL !!!! Told you I was a newbee..................

 

[bwframe]

Group hug?

 

[geo2450]

Group hug?

Let's not go too far here

I think Coach and I have more in common than meets the eye. I need to be carefull here because I've been told he's big enough to kick my butt! However, I've also been told he's quite huggable Did I say that ????? I guess I haven't learned to keep my mouth shut yet

 

[Coach]

no

Group hug?

we won't be taking warm showers together either.

 

[BillD]

Ok. No problem and let's move on. It is a sore subject and that is not your fault. I am probably over sensitive on the subject because time and time folks want to set aside all skills of the competition world and talk about real world and serious skills and many times those folks lack skills.

.

Sensitive? You?? Who would have guesssed???

 

[VUPDblue]

Hmmm, let me add my here: I have shot one IDPA match. I will not shoot another. I like the challenge that USPSA presents and I like that it improves on my gunhandling skills. I also like that in USPSA we are ALL gamers, and we KNOW that ahead of time. The only IDPA match I participated in was taken WAY too seriously by the attendees. I didn't feel welcome and was called a "gamer" as if that was a bad thing. My theory is that if it involves a gun, a timer and a score sheet, then it IS a game. It also seemed to me that in all of the IDPA tradition of making it as "real world" as possible, you still have guys wearing vests with enlarged pockets and other nonsense that is deemed "ok", but then when a guy dumps one extra round on a target so as to improve his reloading position, he's called a "gamer" and ridiculed. I'd probably like IDPA more if they didn't take themselves so seriously. All that being said, I'm all for participation in the shooting sports. If IDPA is your thing, then go to town and get really really good at it. It's just not MY thing...

 

[Joe Williams]

I've yet to shoot IDPA, and it's been years since I've shot USPSA, or IPSC as it was then. Used to shoot IPSC avidly in production class.

I've been told that one can't really be competitive, or have fun, with production guns any more. How true/untrue is this? Is there a good time to be had, and enough people shooting guns like my XD9sc or Cathy's stock RIA 1911 for there to be real competition?

 

[m_deaner]

I've been told that one can't really be competitive, or have fun, with production guns any more. How true/untrue is this? Is there a good time to be had, and enough people shooting guns like my XD9sc or Cathy's stock RIA 1911 for there to be real competition?

That isn't true. Around here at least, production division is the second most competitive division, as judged by the number of shooters that choose to shoot in that class. Limited division is the most popular (but not by much).

The RIA 1911 will need to compete in Limited 10 or single-stack division; no single-action guns are allowed in production.

As for the XD - most shooters choose full-size service handguns. You might be a little less competitive with your compact 9, but I'm sure you'll have fun with it and improve your shooting skills.

 

[rvb]

I've been told that one can't really be competitive, or have fun, with production guns any more. How true/untrue is this?

That statement is insanely inaccurate.

You can buy a DA/SA, striker-fired, or 1911 off the shelf and be perfectly competitive and have a hoot.

-rvb

 

[Beau]

Group hug?

Okay, who grabbed my butt???

 

[Joe Williams]

Thanks, we'll have to try them both out

Got to thinking, and I'm not sure there WAS a production class. I really can't remember. There were Grand Master, Master, A, B, C, D, E classes. I was A class, but I really don't remember different classes for the guns. 1988-1990 time frame. Lots and lots of fun, and taught you how to handle your gun quite well. Not very useful for solving "tactical" problems, but if those problems were to devolve into a shooting situation, I can't see how the games would have done anything but help. Heck of a lot more useful than just standing there drilling holes in paper!

 

[notasccrmom]

Just to clarify here, in USPSA the classes are GM, M, A, B, C, D, and unclassified, those rank the shooters skills. Divisions are what differentiate the different types of guns/equipment. ...so everyone is on the same page with nomenclature.

As others have already mentioned, Production Division is very competitive, and ultimately the shooters skills will determine how competitive they are. That isn't to say that some guns aren't better suited than others to fast and accurate shooting. Can you shoot and do well with a sub compact? Sure, but you will be leaving a little on the table due to sight radius, grip size, and ease of reloading. Having said that, those handicaps can be overcome with practicing whatever it is that you are using.

As an example, I shoot Production almost exclusively with a Glock 34. I'm used to reloading without a big honkin' magwell (like you'd find on a Limited gun). When I've tried a magwell on a Glock, I'm actually slower on the reloads. It's all what you're used to. So whatever you have, practice with it and you'll be no worse off than anyone else.