I drew my weapon, was it the right thing to do

[Tommy2Tone]

J706, someone has asked already, and I thought it was a good question.... What would a cop have done in this situation.

I am interested as well. Sometime i feel like cops can do more and get away with it just because they are a cop. For instance someone posted that they used to be a cop and they would have taken them at gun point and told them to lay on the ground until a uniformed LEO got on scene to ID them. I think i would go to jail if i did that in this situation and i don't think a LEO would...

 

[Boilers]

Let me just reiterate this point.

Get yourselves a nice pocket pistol. Just having your shooting grip already around the pistol and ready to go gives one a lot of confidence and preparation in situations like this. My pocket pistol will provide me the opportunity to draw my main high cap, larger caliber pistol which I do NOT have a grip on in these situations. But my plan is to fire with the small pistol, assess, go for the large pistol. In total, I have two guns - one with 6 rounds and a 6 round extra magazine for reloading; another with 15 rounds and 15 rounds extra mag for reloading - on me at all times. 42 rounds in two guns should be sufficient in my book. And this does not include the spouse, and knives, too.

 

[wally05]

A cop is taught to chase the bad guy, apprehend and hold. That is not something a normal person with limited training should do... unless the mood strikes you. I don't have a problem with someone doing a citizen's arrest per se. But, I wouldn't teach a normal CCW holder to do that. So the question is moot.

 

[j706]

J706, someone has asked already, and I thought it was a good question.
What would a cop have done in this situation. Trapped by what may or may not be three bad guys. Can't leave, can't get back in the store, surrounded, can't call for backup, can't ID yourself as a cop.... what do you do? What till the attack is underway? Drive over 'em? Cops have all kinds of training for dealing with 3 guys coming out of cover and converging on you at high speed from different directions, and I think it would be very useful for us civilians to get the benefit of such knowledge.

Hey Joe hows the kitten? As per your question I am not really sure. I will say based on how the original post read I WOULD NOT have pointed a weapon. Depending on how the guys were acting I would have defiantly been ready. Actually I would tried to avoid the place to start with. I don't think if I was feeling a threat I would have seated myself in a vehicle first off. That is the last place I would have wanted to have been.

Based on my understanding of what happened I would have faced the closest person and asked him what he needed or wanted. You don't have to be nice about it. Of course I would be keeping an eye on the others. I would have let them know that I saw them. I would have kept a reasonable distance and would not have tolerated the person getting inside my reaction zone. For unknowns with me I think 10' is minimum. And that is close, real close. 21' is better and that is close. I would have made it quite clear that I was not afraid of them and that I wont be jacked with. In the event the person wanted to get closer and if he was acting in a threatening manner I would be letting him know I was armed. Probably/maybe by just uncovering and gripping the ole 1911. I believe I would look him dead in the eye and tell him it would be in his best interest to hit the road. It just all depends.

Keep in mind there is no right answer. Others whom have been there help me out with this... I have found that most criminals are predators. They want easy prey. They are good at reading people who are confidant and sure of themselves. They like ambush type situations. It sounds like our original poster had a good situational awareness and was onto the potential bad guys quickly. I dunno, it is a tough call.

My original point I attempted to make is we/you cannot go around pointing guns at people because we thought that they were acting suspicious or we though that they were about to attack us. That just won't cut it under legal scrutiny.

Scenario for our original poster. Had the guy punched you in the face, would you have shot him? You had your pistol pointed at him and he punched you dead in the nose through your open window. Honestly-what would you have done?

Look guys-I am not some kind expert on this stuff. I just want people to stop and look at the big picture here. It is serious stuff with some possible very bad outcomes. It happens a lot. I really hate to see a decent hard working family man get messed up by overreacting to a perceived threat. God forbid if the time comes when someone is getting ready to do you harm,you will know it. There will be no doubt in your mind. For all intents and purposes you are going to have react to the other persons actions.

Hope I am not babbling. Been up pushing 28 hrs and feeling it but this is interesting IMO.

 

[j706]

I am interested as well. Sometime i feel like cops can do more and get away with it just because they are a cop. For instance someone posted that they used to be a cop and they would have taken them at gun point and told them to lay on the ground until a uniformed LEO got on scene to ID them. I think i would go to jail if i did that in this situation and i don't think a LEO would...

Based on the way I read the post, Had a former or even current off duty LEO took them down at gun point like described, they would be the ones going to jail.

 

[Tommy2Tone]

Scenario for our original poster. Had the guy punched you in the face, would you have shot him? You had your pistol pointed at him and he punched you dead in the nose through your open window. Honestly-what would you have done?

I think he would have shot him, i think i would have too. You have no other defense in a vehicle and do not know his intentions. He already saw that you are armed and still decided to engage you. I don't know about others here but i do not plan on getting in a fist fight. I agreed with you with a gun is the last line of defense but you have me thinking again and i think that in THIS situation that a physical fight with three guys is my last resort. I like to think that i carry a gun so i don't have to get in a physical fight. Granted i don't go around starting them, but if someone just came up and punched me or was arguing with me and threatening me, i would not fight them if i am armed. **i am not saying i would point a gun at them either** i would definitely let them know i was armed and have a grip, and if they still wanted to fight then...

Not that you where saying that he should have fought back in this hypothetical situation, but i think fighting while armed is dangerous for many reasons included getting your gun stolen.

 

[AndersonIN]

Scenario for our original poster. Had the guy punched you in the face, would you have shot him? You had your pistol pointed at him and he punched you dead in the nose through your open window. Honestly-what would you have done?

Yes, the man would have been dead!

does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.

 

[j706]

I think he would have shot him, i think i would have too. You have no other defense in a vehicle and do not know his intentions. He already saw that you are armed and still decided to engage you. I don't know about others here but i do not plan on getting in a fist fight. I agreed with you with a gun is the last line of defense but you have me thinking again and i think that in THIS situation that a physical fight with three guys is my last resort. I like to think that i carry a gun so i don't have to get in a physical fight. Granted i don't go around starting them, but if someone just came up and punched me or was arguing with me and threatening me, i would not fight them if i am armed. **i am not saying i would point a gun at them either** i would definitely let them know i was armed and have a grip, and if they still wanted to fight then...

Not that you where saying that he should have fought back in this hypothetical situation, but i think fighting while armed is dangerous for many reasons included getting your gun stolen.

I don't know the original poster but...I think he might have fired. That is where the problem lies. The other two was on the opposite side of the vehicle. If you shoot someone because he punches you, well you have got a huge problem. That is one of my biggest concerns with some guys who carry. Think about it guys!!

 

[wally05]

Based on the way I read the post, Had a former or even current off duty LEO took them down at gun point like described, they would be the ones going to jail.

If the LEO just pulled the gun on the guys approaching him, yeah, maybe he would be in trouble. IF he did it as the OP did it, not doing anything until the guy tried to put his hands in the vehicle, he would be fine. All the OP did was keep the possible bgs from entering his vehicle. You and I both know the cop wouldn't be going to jail, at least not right there. My interaction with officers and my experience doing it does seem to show that police officers are given much more of a chance to explain themselves than non-LEOs. But, I guess that is for another thread. All the OP would have to say is "They surrounded my vehicle and one put his hands through my window" and he'd be fine.

 

[j706]

Scenario for our original poster. Had the guy punched you in the face, would you have shot him? You had your pistol pointed at him and he punched you dead in the nose through your open window. Honestly-what would you have done?

Yes, the man would have been dead!

does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.

I rest my case. This would be an otherwise good guy sitting in the state pen for a homicide charge.

 

[wally05]

I don't know the original poster but...I think he might have fired. That is where the problem lies. The other two was on the opposite side of the vehicle. If you shoot someone because he punches you, well you have got a huge problem. That is one of my biggest concerns with some guys who carry. Think about it guys!!

And you're constantly missing the point that the OP was in his vehicle and if the guy would have punched him, the op could have probably thought the guy was trying to get in his vehicle. Also, 3 on 1 is a force disparity. The shooting would have been good. When was the last time you took a use of force course? I don't mean to be personally insulting, but you seem to be forgetting some of this stuff. Even police officers must be knowledgable on disparity of force.

 

[j706]

If the LEO just pulled the gun on the guys approaching him, yeah, maybe he would be in trouble. IF he did it as the OP did it, not doing anything until the guy tried to put his hands in the vehicle, he would be fine. All the OP did was keep the possible bgs from entering his vehicle. You and I both know the cop wouldn't be going to jail, at least not right there. My interaction with officers and my experience doing it does seem to show that police officers are given much more of a chance to explain themselves than non-LEOs. But, I guess that is for another thread. All the OP would have to say is "They surrounded my vehicle and one put his hands through my window" and he'd be fine.

I believe he said he put his hand or hands on the door. I did not get the impression that the guy was attempting to gain entry into the vehicle. (Jeep)

 

[wally05]

I believe he said he put his hand or hands on the door. I did not get the impression that the guy was attempting to gain entry into the vehicle. (Jeep)

What if he punched him while the OP was still in the vehicle?

 

[j706]

And you're constantly missing the point that the OP was in his vehicle and if the guy would have punched him, the op could have probably thought the guy was trying to get in his vehicle. Also, 3 on 1 is a force disparity. The shooting would have been good. When was the last time you took a use of force course? I don't mean to be personally insulting, but you seem to be forgetting some of this stuff. Even police officers must be knowledgable on disparity of force.

Probably trying to get into his vehicle just ain't gonna cut it IMO. Would you really shoot a guy because you thought he might be trying to get in your vehicle? Think about it for a second.

 

[rmcrob]

I don't think this is a huge disagreement. j706 is coming from the viewpoint of seeing someone's life ruined by overreacting. His viewpoint makes a lot of sense. I hope that -- if I ever am in a similar situation -- I can discipline myself to not overreact.

On the other hand, I haven't been in this situation and I hope I never am.

The disagreement comes down to this: do I try to talk my way out of it, accompanied by displaying my hand on the gun ready to draw? Or, do I draw the gun and perhaps point it at the bad guy?

Heat of the moment would make a lot of difference, I'm sure. I don't fault the OP for how he handled the situation, and I don't fault j706 for pointing out that it could have been handled differently. I've learned something from both posters, and my thinking has certainly been stimulated.

I read something the other day in the book Masters of Chaos, which is about Army Special Forces. It was talking about a medical study that showed a brain chemistry difference between guys who are successful in Special Forces and guys who fail to make the grade. (I don't have the book with me at work, so I can't be more specific.) There is a coolness factor to the successful guys; they don't tend to overreact in the heat of the moment. They stay calm.

I personally don't know if I have that brain chemistry factor or not, since it really hasn't been tested. I hope I will be able to j706 my way through it when it happens, but I think I'm more likely to chubb it. Either way, I'll do my best to protect myself. Neither chubb nor j706 are wrong, in my book.

This discussion is great. Perhaps one of the best in recent memory on INGO. I really appreciate the transparency and willingness to share.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

Hope I am not babbling. Been up pushing 28 hrs and feeling it but this is interesting IMO.

Please don't arrest me, but I considered drawing on the kitten this morning 5:30, and she's sitting on my chest batting at my face trying to get me to rough house She's a cutie pie, and lots of fun!

It IS an interesting conversation, and the incident is more akin to what most folks are liable to face than the cut and dried, black and white issues they get in a lot of training classes. We clearly disagree on whether or not he should have drawn, but it is an important conversation to have. You are clearly intent on doing your job the way you think is right, not on a power trip, so your input is valuable.

You've met me. My considerable insulation aside, I'm not a big guy. Three guys corner me, I CANNOT afford to wait for a punch. A punch, in that situation facing three guys, is the begining of me suffering serious bodily harm, and perhaps death. At least that's a consideration I have to bear in mind, which makes a fear that would make a use of deadly force legal.

I've actually been in a similar situation. I was working midnight shifts part time at a convenience store in Albuquerque. Now, getting robbed was at least a weekly occurrence, pretty much routine, and I knew when it was about to happen. They'd demand the money, or steal some cigs or candy, I'd give it up and wave goodbye, they'd book. This was different, four guys come in giving me "the vibe." Two go to the back of the store and begin stealing hot dogs and stuff. Two come up to the counter and demanded money while filling pockets with cigarettes. I gave them what was in the register. It wasn't enough. They demanded more. Consistent with store policy, I dropped $50 from the time safe (the max I could) and gave it to them. They demanded more, I explained it would be 20 minutes till I could get more, and gave them a bag so they could carry more cigarettes. They start coming over the counter at me, and without even thinking about it my Model 10 was in the "lead" guy's face and I was pulling the trigger. He ran before I finished the pull, along with all his buddies.

Bear in mind: No weapon had been displayed, no physical contact had been made at all. Yet, I was in the act of opening fire, my intent was to shoot anyone that didn't run. None of the cops that responded even thought about arresting me. All they did was laugh at the look on the face of the guy looking down my barrel. It's pretty good odds he peed himself, at least I like to think so. I darn near did.

Anyway, were the cops right? Wrong? Should I have been arrested for what I did in pulling a gun on an unarmed threat that hadn't laid a hand on me?

 

[wally05]

Probably trying to get into his vehicle just ain't gonna cut it IMO. Would you really shoot a guy because you thought he might be trying to get in your vehicle? Think about it for a second.

If the guy has punched me while I'm in my vehicle with 2 other of his friends on one side of the vehicle and him on the other, I'd probably say yes. For, one, it could become a 1 on 3 fight really quick and two, someone in their motor vehicle doesn't have to retreat in Indiana.

 

[Tommy2Tone]

If someone still trying to harm me after i had placed my hand on my weapon (1st warning) and he still got closer and closer and i drew my weapon from its holster, not pointed (2nd warning) and he still kept closing in on me i would first be looking for a way out. at this point there probably isn't one because i would have already taken it. So my options are:

a - keep it drawn but not point as he closes in on me
b - point it but don't shoot as he closes in on me
c - warn him again and shot once hes with in striking distance
d - get in a physical fight

 

[j706]

If the guy has punched me while I'm in my vehicle with 2 other of his friends on one side of the vehicle and him on the other, I'd probably say yes. For, one, it could become a 1 on 3 fight really quick and two, someone in their motor vehicle doesn't have to retreat in Indiana.

Well...all I can say is do what you think is right and what you can live with. But I encourage you to do some soul searching on that one bud. It scares me for you.

 

[wally05]

Well...all I can say is do what you think is right and what you can live with. But I encourage you to do some soul searching on that one bud. It scares me for you.

I really don't know how to take that comment. Even with a smiley, it's slightly insulting. What department do you work for anyway? I'll be sure not to have someone attack me and have to defend myself in your jurisdiction.