I drew my weapon, was it the right thing to do

[elaw555]

It sounds like the threat was stopped when the motorcyclist saw the gun. The OP's story is very similar but for one key fact. The OP had presence of mind to continuously reevaluate the situation and determined that the threat to life was no longer present. The woman in the SUV did not and paid the price.

 

[printcraft]

As many others have stated the "group" approach is threatening.
OK, people surrounding you is a threat..... any disagreement there??
Why take up positions across from the 1st "approacher"?
They block exits, look for additional openings on you, act as lookouts, it's a pack tactic.
One person looking to give me a beat down will be handled differently than 3.


Years ago.... A buddy of mine was driving home late one night on a weekend around 2 am.
He stopped at a red light just outside of town and was looking through
his cd's and not paying attention to his surroundings. He noticed that a
car pulled up behind him and the light was still red, he heard car doors
and just as he hit the lock button there were guys on both sides of the
car trying the handles. Smokey burnout and away he went. I don't
think they were going to ask for directions................
Now, what would have happened if he had not been able to lock the doors??
He did get his permit shortly after that.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Based on the way I read the post, Had a former or even current off duty LEO took them down at gun point like described, they would be the ones going to jail.

I doubt that, at least not immediately. Off duty officer in the OPs position, draws and orders them down. Probably paid administrative leave while investigated. With maybe a smack on the wrist after at the most. And I'm not trash talking LEOs, off duty LEO in street clothes, has three guys coming from hiding, at night, from opposite sides, approaching him at a fast pace. I think that would give him articulable suspicion at the minimum if not probable cause for a detention. And outnumbered 3 to 1. I'm guessing he would of drawn immediately and ordered them down.

I rest my case. This would be an otherwise good guy sitting in the state pen for a homicide charge.

If he didn't talk to and attorney first, before talking to the LEOs quite possible. After talking to and attorney picture this statement. I left the store and was walking to my car when I notice two men jump out from behind a dumpster to the south of me and start yelling at me. As I am attempting to retreat to my car to get away I and glance back and see a third man coming around a darkend corner towards me from the south. I flee to my car and draw my pistol as I'm getting in. Next thing I know theres two of them on the passenger side of my car with the windows down and one of them reaching towards my open drivers side window so I pointed my firearm at him and told him to back up. He proceeded to punch me full force in the face. Knowing that I was severly outnumbered and was in serious danger I had no option but to fire.... Totally true and sounds at least a little more justified. And I'm sure and experienced attny could do much better than my off the cuff laymen spin.

I believe he said he put his hand or hands on the door. I did not get the impression that the guy was attempting to gain entry into the vehicle. (Jeep)

I almost had a LEO draw on me for putting my hands on the window ledge of his car. I was walking to the bar after work and he pulled up in front of me and asked me to come over to the car. I walked up to his window and he asked me where I was going/coming from/ID. I get my license out and hand it too him, start to drop my hands down to my sides, and get the bright idea that he would like to have my hands in sight while I'm standing there. So I reach up to put my hands on the ledge, he sees my hands coming up and towards the car, his left hand comes up towards me, right hand dropping down towards his sidearm while yelling iirc the same thing as the op As soon as I seen his reaction my hands were going up and I was stepping back before he even finished his sentence. I ended up explaining what I was doing, and he informed me that was probably something I shouldn't do. He ended up giving me a ride to the bar

Joe, I am not smart enough to use this multi quote stuff but glad the kitten is fitting in well. As for your incident I would have done the same. That was a robbery, and a forcible felony when they came over the counter.

Easy the middle button on the bottom right of the posts that says multi click on it for each post you want to quote, then on the last one click quote. (Shhh it took me a while to figure it out too, I used to left click on quote, open it in a new window and then cut and paste them all together. )

Cops on power trips usually have short careers. I have been accused of the same by certain people who didn't like what I said and or did. Sure hope they were wrong.

I hope so too, especially if you ever pull me over.

Three on one and someone might just got shot. Whole different circumstance.

Same circumstance as the op, three guys two on one side of his car, one on the other.

Looks to be significantly more aggressive on the shooter's side in that case. Reading through the comments of people who have been following the case, apparently, the guy who got shot was backing up with his hands up after seeing the gun when he was shot, which was seen by multiple witnesses.

Not to mention the shooter and her son swearing at and kicking him while he lied there.

 

[Joe Williams]

Man, I hate it when people grab my tool.

I think having it used against you would be even worse!

 

[IndyBeerman]

Like j706 said...I fail to see the threat...Because we carry people can't approach us? Sorry, my weapon is not my first line of defense when dealing with people. I see no need to even call the police in this situation.

Ahhh, Excuse me huntall50 and j706, He became a threat the second he laid his hands on the edge of the door with his 2 buddies on the other side of the vehicle.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who walks up like that is not there for a casual conversation, he could do that from 5 feet away, not at the edge of the door and not have his buddies on the other side as a diversion so he could rush the driver side door, or he provides it while they rush the passenger door.

 

[Roadie]

Ahhh, Excuse me huntall50 and j706, He became a threat the second he laid his hands on the edge of the door with his 2 buddies on the other side of the vehicle.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who walks up like that is not there for a casual conversation, he could do that from 5 feet away, not at the edge of the door and not have his buddies on the other side as a diversion so he could rush the driver side door, or he provides it while they rush the passenger door.

I may be a total n00b, but I have read up on Situational Awareness, and no insult meant, but...

If 1 guy walking up to you from one side babbling at you, then putting his hands on your door, while two other guys walk up from the other side, doesn't set off your "Situational Awareness Radar" I am not sure what would.

I can't remember if the post was here, or another Forum, but I remember a story about a guy walking through a Wal Mart parking lot with a child. Either 2 or 3 men were walking toward him, split, then came toward him from opposite sides. If I recall correctly he uncovered his handgun and as soon as one of the guys saw this, he broke off and went the other direction.

In my mind, a group of guys coming toward me, splitting ranks, and coming at me from different directions would set off a LOT of flags. I think it would to most people, and at least one LEO on here agreed, so I do not think I am way off base here.

 

[cbop]

This has been a very interesting and illuminating discussion. It certainly makes you think in directions you may have not considered before and I thank all of you for that.

I do know that I am getting too old to get my butt kicked around a parking lot though so I hope the threshold of perceived threat is tempered with common sense if I was ever standing before a judge explaining myself. I do understand that holding and pointing are 2 different things, as well.

One thing I was wondering though.... the OP certainly was in a difficult position due to not being able to reach his keys once in the vehicle (I always carry a spare key in my pocket but now I am going to switch it from my strong side so I do not end up in the same situation) but what if the OP had just laid on the horn? Wouldn't that have served as another option that could have caused the 3 to take off? It should have at least brought the storekeeper to the window. I would imagine even if the 3 did not harbor ill-will, it should send the message that he was not in the conversational mood. The horn works whether the key is on or not and it only takes an elbow or something. Heck, he could have pressed the horn button with the gun barrel and then had the defense of saying "I was trying to tell them to stand back or the air bag gets it"

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

what if the OP had just laid on the horn? Wouldn't that have served as another option that could have caused the 3 to take off? It should have at least brought the storekeeper to the window. I would imagine even if the 3 did not harbor ill-will, it should send the message that he was not in the conversational mood.

and a big +1 to you . That is an option that I haven't seen yet .

I would think that anything you could do to draw more public attention to the situation would benefit your survival .

 

[Phil502]

This has been a very interesting and illuminating discussion. It certainly makes you think in directions you may have not considered before and I thank all of you for that.

I do know that I am getting too old to get my butt kicked around a parking lot though so I hope the threshold of perceived threat is tempered with common sense if I was ever standing before a judge explaining myself. I do understand that holding and pointing are 2 different things, as well.

One thing I was wondering though.... the OP certainly was in a difficult position due to not being able to reach his keys once in the vehicle (I always carry a spare key in my pocket but now I am going to switch it from my strong side so I do not end up in the same situation) but what if the OP had just laid on the horn? Wouldn't that have served as another option that could have caused the 3 to take off? It should have at least brought the storekeeper to the window. I would imagine even if the 3 did not harbor ill-will, it should send the message that he was not in the conversational mood. The horn works whether the key is on or not and it only takes an elbow or something. Heck, he could have pressed the horn button with the gun barrel and then had the defense of saying "I was trying to tell them to stand back or the air bag gets it"

LOL thats good, could work with your Mother-in-law too.

The horn sounds like a good idea. Something to remember.

 

[j706]

We must not arm ourselves without thoroughly understanding what we are taking on. It is a great responsibility, not to be taken lightly.

More so than most people would ever dream

Yep, the legislative and possibly the executive branch gave you the license. The judicial isn't always on board.

You never know how the "judicial branch" will view things. Just about the time I feel like I know how they view certain things,their views change.

Even obviously righteous shooters wind up having to go the distance to prove it. Be ready, because it could be you.

One of the reasons, if for no other, to avoid these type things at all costs. Even when things are done perfectly,it might still be a very expensive pain in your behind.

Agreed. However, I am a very literal person. I want to see things laid out A then B then C, if D, then A, if E, then B, etc. There is so much disparity in gun laws etc, it is hard to "thoroughly understand". Yanno?

I agree but it just ain't that way. Tons of gray area. It can be complicated at its best.




So much for logic eh? One would think, logically, they they should all be on the same page.

No. Knife = deadly force as far as I know. If someone gets hostile with a knife that's sufficient cause as far as I know.

If a person presents a knife,if they are within a reasonable distance (21' seems to be the current lethal knife range) that IMO is a lethal force encounter.

 

[55spartan]

I would have done the exact same thing. Even if you have "brushed up on the law" as stated earlier, you can't tell me with 3 unknown males with aggressive behavior in your face you would leave your weapon holstered???? I know who I would want as a my buddy in a situation like that and it wouldn't be some fool worried about the law and weather he should protect himself or not. That decision has already been made for him!!

 

[Timjoebillybob]

One thing I was wondering though.... the OP certainly was in a difficult position due to not being able to reach his keys once in the vehicle (I always carry a spare key in my pocket but now I am going to switch it from my strong side so I do not end up in the same situation) but what if the OP had just laid on the horn? Wouldn't that have served as another option that could have caused the 3 to take off? It should have at least brought the storekeeper to the window. I would imagine even if the 3 did not harbor ill-will, it should send the message that he was not in the conversational mood. The horn works whether the key is on or not and it only takes an elbow or something. Heck, he could have pressed the horn button with the gun barrel and then had the defense of saying "I was trying to tell them to stand back or the air bag gets it"

1st Welcome to INGO

2nd Great first post.

 

[j706]

I would have done the exact same thing. Even if you have "brushed up on the law" as stated earlier, you can't tell me with 3 unknown males with aggressive behavior in your face you would leave your weapon holstered???? I know who I would want as a my buddy in a situation like that and it wouldn't be some fool worried about the law and weather he should protect himself or not. That decision has already been made for him!!

OK so three guys are acting aggressive in your opinion, they approach you and you draw. What would be wrong with one of the three drawing and firing at you? Would they be justified in firing? After all once you draw you have shown intent as well as a means to use deadly force. One of the three would have pretty sound justification if they shot you,more than what you would have had to have draw on them.

I know who I WOULD NOT want as my buddy in that situation!

Again-You present a weapon just because because three people walk up to you,even if they are acting aggressive, you have escalated the situation ten fold. The weapon is your absolute LAST resort. The weapon is not something you display or threaten someone with just because you feel uncomfortable with their actions. I think that is the mindset that gets so many people in trouble.

Prisons are full of fools who were not worried about laws and whether they should have protected themselves or not. They are full of fools who decided to shoot first and ask questions later. They are full of fools who lacked common sense and over reacted because they though one thing or the other.

 

[finity]

OK so three guys are acting aggressive in your opinion, they approach you and your draw. What would be wrong with one of the three drawing and firing at you? Would they be justified in firing? After all once you draw you have shown intent as well as a means to use deadly force. One of the three would have pretty sound justification if they shot you,more than what you would have had to have draw on them.

The one to get out alive will be the one who is victorious. If you're dead they could make the argument that you drew unprovoked, if there were no other witnesses to say otherwise. If you live through it, there's a good chance at that point you could pretty easily convince a jury you were in fear of SBI - I mean, HE HAD A GUN! & there were two more besides him.

The law does not allow the claim of self-defense if you are the one who commenced the altercation:

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
.
.
(f) Notwithstanding subsection (d), a person is not justified in using force if the person:
(1) is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;
(2) provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) continues to combat another person after the other person withdraws from the encounter and communicates the other person's intent to stop hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight.

IOW, you can't just provoke a fight so you can claim SD as a justification for subsequently beating the crap out of them (or shooting them).

Again-You present a weapon just because because three people walk up to you,even if they are acting aggressive, you have escalated the situation ten fold. The weapon is your absolute LAST resort. The weapon is not something you display or threaten someone with just because you feel uncomfortable with their actions.

Actually, yes you can. If that "uncomfortableness" rises to the level of reasonable fear of SBI.

I'd say if a guy was hitting me over the head with a tire iron I would be pretty "uncomfortable". If 3 guys are walking up to me in an agressive manner that, too, would make me very "uncomfortable" because I could reasonably think the tire iron (or knife or 6 fists & 6 boots) might be coming next.

 

[Tommy2Tone]

At the end of the day it's all about going home to our families. Do what you have to do and use common sense to obtain that goal everyday. I personally know that i am NOT going to just let three males coming from 2 different directions get within 10 feet of me. If that means i have to place my hand on my gun or even draw after giving warning then that's what that means. Again I am not letting 3 males from 2 different directions get within 10 feet of me. J706 i know you wouldn't either. end of story.

 

[j706]

The one to get out alive will be the one who is victorious. If you're dead they could make the argument that you drew unprovoked, if there were no other witnesses to say otherwise. If you live through it, there's a good chance at that point you could pretty easily convince a jury you were in fear of SBI - I mean, HE HAD A GUN! & there were two more besides him.

The law does not allow the claim of self-defense if you are the one who commenced the altercation:



IOW, you can't just provoke a fight so you can claim SD as a justification for subsequently beating the crap out of them (or shooting them).




Actually, yes you can. If that "uncomfortableness" rises to the level of reasonable fear of SBI.

I'd say if a guy was hitting me over the head with a tire iron I would be pretty "uncomfortable". If 3 guys are walking up to me in an agressive manner that, too, would make me very "uncomfortable" because I could reasonably think the tire iron (or knife or 6 fists & 6 boots) might be coming next.

Well all I can say is do what you think it right. Unlike what you must be saying-Do what you can get away with? No witnesses? Hmmmm. Out of all of the posts on this thread yours is IMO the most asinine of all. Pardon the bluntness but some people will read yours and have yet another misguided view of justifiable force. Yet another example of someone reading through IC codes and finding a few phrases that fits their thinking.

 

[Bisley Man]

fromj706 Prisons are full of fools who were not worried about laws and whether they should have protected themselves or not. They are full of fools who decided to shoot first and ask questions later. They are full of fools who lacked common sense and over reacted because they though one thing or the other.[/QUOTE]

Cemetaries are full of people who didn't heed the obvious warnings of danger also. IF THERE'S 3 AGAINST 1, DRAW YOUR GUN! WHEN IN DOUBT, GET IT OUT!If three Pat Boone triplets ,in white suits came at me from opposite sides from behind a dumpster and trapped me in my car I would have drawn my gun!

 

[j706]

fromj706 Prisons are full of fools who were not worried about laws and whether they should have protected themselves or not. They are full of fools who decided to shoot first and ask questions later. They are full of fools who lacked common sense and over reacted because they though one thing or the other.

Cemetaries are full of people who didn't heed the obvious warnings of danger also. IF THERE'S 3 AGAINST 1, DRAW YOUR GUN! WHEN IN DOUBT, GET IT OUT!If three Pat Boone triplets ,in white suits came at me from opposite sides from behind a dumpster and trapped me in my car I would have drawn my gun![/quote]


So we go through life thinking every negative encounter we have is life threatening. So someone approaches you and you feel uneasy or you don't like it, we go for the gun. We automatically assume that the person/persons is going to kill you. IMO that is the mindset of a person whom is fearful at heart. Kind of like a timid dog so to speak. A timid scared dog will strike in a second just out of fear. Again..I think some of you guys are flirting with disaster.

I am done with this thread. It can go on forever. People that have their mind all ready set will not be changed. I just hope anyone who reads these posts will stop and consider what the risks (On both sides) really are.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

j706 , just to make sure I understand you .

You mean to tell us that as a LEO , if you were off duty in your POV and civies . If three men run up on you and surround you , you would not draw your weapon ?

 

[concrete dog]

j706 i would like to know if you think in this sitution it would have been ok like i said before to have the gun out of the holster and the guy know it but not pointed at him unless it got out of hand.like i said i would have done the same thing,maybe short of pointing in his direction.I WAS TOUGHT NOT TO PULL A GUN UNLESS THERE WAS A NEED OR YOUR LIFE WAS IN REAL DANGER.inthis sitution theop and alot of others felt like it was a need and his life might have been endanger.on a side note i have enjoyed your posts in this thread the last few days,they have been very informative.