How many times would this guy have been shot here in Indy?

[hacksawfg]

Viral marketing for this movie coming out on Friday (yeah, I followed the link)? If so, it's in kind of poor taste.

That's why it says "get revenge" at the end.

Dead Man Down | In Theaters March 8th

 

[Paul30]

And there's the rub.

I realize the "what if" game could go on forever, but this is something that must at least be considered when folks start talking about how they would react in a situation where they don't have all the information.

Sadly, in this society they may even both be in on it to mug YOU. They pull it on enough people, get you in the elevator via baiting you to come in and try to break it up, then they both gang up on you or pull a gun when the doors close. You never know. I'm packing, I'm not getting close or physical in a close quarter area with two people I don't know. I would likely draw and give instructions, the victim will not be trusted yet either. Instruct them to separate until the police get there at a distance from you. Career criminals will pull many things to get you to drop your guard. If they are a true victim, they will do as you ask. Don't let your guard down, ever.

 

[ultra...good]

That video was something else. I can understand the ones that freak out and scream uncontrollably, the ones that try to help of course. What I do not understand is the one guy that is videotaping it towards the end. Really restores my faith in humanity.

 

[Tanfodude]

"...YES, the muther ****er was trying to kill me so I'm gonna ****ing kill him" is not self defense. That is murder. Plain and simple. And YOU, if you're successful, will be the one getting butt****ed in jail. You need to get your head out of your *** and learn what you're allowed to do and what you aren't. You need to learn where that line is. Once you have gotten the best of the other guy and you continue on with your "self defense", and you go from defending yourself to "I'm gonna ****ing kill him" you've crossed that line. You're now the bad guy. Congratulations.



Where did you say you got your JD, again?



Good luck with that. "STOP, or I'll yell STOP again!" That always works.



It's not the same application of deadly force. It's strangling the life out of somebody vs. stopping someone from strangling the life out of somebody. If you're defending yourself, once you've bested the other guy you have to stop. Once you are able to withdraw you have to withdraw. If you don't, If you don't stop, you cross that line yourself and put yourself in the wrong. You cross the line from defending yourself to murder. Remember, we're talking about a GARROTE. Not a knife, not a gun, not something that can end a fight quickly when used to best effect. We're talking about a piece of cord you hold around someone's neck, while behind him, tighten it, and strangle him to death. Nobody on this board will ever convince me that you can do something like THAT in self defense. I won't buy it. And I can't picture a police officer or prosecutor buying it, either. "He was strangling me, so I managed to fight my way clear, took the garrote out of his hands, took his back, put the garrote around his neck, and took the next several minutes strangling him to death, because that's what he deserves. I was defending myself." I would bet my house that you'd go to prison with a story like that.

So, you shooting is a BETTER way of dealing with the situation. right? You didn't even answer the questions that I've asked about the what ifs. You like like to shoot. And yeah, if I'm defending my life from someone who's trying to TAKE my life, yes, I will strangle him until he's out. I would like to kill the mother ****er but when he's out after choking him, I'm pretty sure I'd stop on what I'd be doing. But I can't deny that I would love to kill whoever it is. Under duress, YOU DON'T reason ESPECIALLY if I'm the victim. But you, who just walked in to the situation, hell yeah, castle doctrine, shoot first.

Funny thing is, I don't know how old you are but you talk like you're in your teens. Your arguments have NO appropriate reasoning or whatsoever. You're like, "HEY, I have a gun, I'm gonna shoot you coz I'm a hero."

I do hope that you're never gonna be in a situation like in your lifetime coz I'm pretty sure with the way you make your shoot first ask questions later will serve you right.

 

[Tanfodude]

Remember this whole thread was based on a video, wherein they were "staging a murder" to see how people would react. Coming upon a scene like that, it would be reasonable to infer that a murder is being committed, when they're "staging a murder", would it not? After all, their specific intent was to make people believe that.



HappyGunner called me an idiot. But I don't worry about it.

You're butthurt coz you like to shoot first and can't deal with the situation the I called you out on your SHOOT first attitude. You don't even bother putting your shoes on those persons involved. Done talking to a teenager.

 

[jbombelli]

So, you shooting is a BETTER way of dealing with the situation. right? You didn't even answer the questions that I've asked about the what ifs. You like like to shoot. And yeah, if I'm defending my life from someone who's trying to TAKE my life, yes, I will strangle him until he's out. I would like to kill the mother ****er but when he's out after choking him, I'm pretty sure I'd stop on what I'd be doing. But I can't deny that I would love to kill whoever it is. Under duress, YOU DON'T reason ESPECIALLY if I'm the victim. But you, who just walked in to the situation, hell yeah, castle doctrine, shoot first.

Funny thing is, I don't know how old you are but you talk like you're in your teens. Your arguments have NO appropriate reasoning or whatsoever. You're like, "HEY, I have a gun, I'm gonna shoot you coz I'm a hero."

I do hope that you're never gonna be in a situation like in your lifetime coz I'm pretty sure with the way you make your shoot first ask questions later will serve you right.

No. I'll shoot to save the guy's life from a murdering POS that's strangling him to death with a garrote. And I like how you change your whole approach from "I'm killing him" to "I'd like to kill him but will stop when he's out" when that is not what you said before. Sometimes you have to act. Standing around and asking questions or barking orders at someone garroting another person is for people like you, who stand around and let people be murdered right in front of your eyes, so you can be a "good witness." The murder victim I'm sure would appreciate your approach.

And I don't care about your "what ifs" because when someone is being murdered right in front of you, you don't have time for "what ifs" unless you're willing to stand there and let them be murdered while you debate what to do or who is doing what.

You're butthurt coz you like to shoot first and can't deal with the situation the I called you out on your SHOOT first attitude. You don't even bother putting your shoes on those persons involved. Done talking to a teenager.

Not butthurt at all. And I'm still waiting to hear where you earned your JD, since you like to accuse people of being wannabe attorneys. Do you even know what "JD" stands for? Probably not, without looking it up. And talking like a teenager? LOL. You're the one tossing insults around, and using words like "coz" instead of "because" - you know, like a teenager texting his little girlfriend.

The bottom line is this: If I see someone strangling the life out of someone else with a garrote, I'm shooting him. That's it. And whatever happens later, happens later. And I can tell you with about 99% certainty, that I won't be charged with anything in that situation. It's reasonable to infer that, when a person is garroting another person, it's not self defense. It's an attempt to to murder the other person. I don't need to put your shoes on my feet to realize they're far too small. I can tell that from here.

 

[Tanfodude]

You don't have to know the entire situation, imho, so long as a reasonable person would believe that inaction would lead to serious bodily injury or death and that belief could be articulated you *should* be ok.

That said - I would hope anybody with a firearm would not just immediately fire after drawing in such a situation. I am sure, as soon as the firearm was drawn and orders issued things would go one of two ways:
1. They would de-escalate
2. They would escalate

If they escalated that would be the point when the judgement was made. If they de-escalated then you would not shoot.

All of that said, with the way he was being attacked in this particular situation I see no way, under the affects of stress you would certainly experience, that you could get a clean shot without some other physical interaction prior.

I know there will be those that say not to draw unless you ARE going to shoot but that's a great generalization. I would not draw unless I was prepared to shoot but for me drawing is an escalation of force and not necessarily the final step down that path.

I suspect drawing a weapon and giving loud and clear directives would likely be a sufficient level of escalation to take control of the situation in this particular set of circumstances.

There are two things I hope:
1. That I am never put in this position
2. That I go to my grave of natural causes never having to have used my firearm in defense of myself, my family, or a third party.

This is an example of a reasonable argument.

The purpose of the discussion here is to share knowledge and the appropriate actions to take instead of "Yeah, I'd shoot that person if that happened here."

 

[tom1025]

Well there goes the neighborhood!

 

[Tanfodude]

Well there goes the neighborhood!

 

[hoosierdoc]

Funny that they picked NYC. One of the safest places to do pranks without fear of the citizens being able to hurt you. Sad commentary there.

 

[danielson]

This isnt Hollywood... strangling does NOT equal death.

Some of you are being gung ho about this, and its ridiculous.

If you saw that situation, and your first response was to shoot. You should not be carrying a firearm.. A wire used for strangulation needs to be held tight, well past the point of asphyxiation in order to be deadly. The human body is a very persistent thing, and resists death alot more than the movies lead us to believe.

The fact is, you might get away with shooting a man in that situation, you probably wont, but either way, its not the right thing to do.

Proportionate response... Kick the guy in the head as hard as you can. You will end the confrontation.

I love how you think rendering a man unconscious, after fighting him from trying to do the same to you, is ridiculous, but you think its totally cool to execute him.

 

[jbombelli]

This isnt Hollywood... strangling does NOT equal death.

Some of you are being gung ho about this, and its ridiculous.

If you saw that situation, and your first response was to shoot. You should not be carrying a firearm.. A wire used for strangulation needs to be held tight, well past the point of asphyxiation in order to be deadly. The human body is a very persistent thing, and resists death alot more than the movies lead us to believe.

The fact is, you might get away with shooting a man in that situation, you probably wont, but either way, its not the right thing to do.

Proportionate response... Kick the guy in the head as hard as you can. You will end the confrontation.

I love how you think rendering a man unconscious, after fighting him from trying to do the same to you, is ridiculous, but you think its totally cool to execute him.

You need to go back and read the "I"m going to kill the mother******" remarks before you say "Oh... he was just going to render him unconscious."

People don't use garrotes to render others unconscious. They use them to kill people.

Putting a garrote around someone's neck and strangling them is deadly force. Deadly force (shooting that person) is a proportional response to deadly force.

Find me a cop who will arrest me for shooting someone for strangling someone else with a garrote and have him post here. I'll be waiting. And I'll probably be waiting a long time.

I flat guarantee you, if it's YOUR WIFE being strangled with a garrote, you'd shoot the guy. If you wouldn't, then I'm sorry for anyone who would be married to you.

 

[actaeon277]

Strangling does not equal death.

Blood vessels can be ruptured, including the jugular.
Larynx can be crushed.
Throat muscles swell, closing the trachea.

Pressure = force/area.
All the force your arms can muster. And a small area of the wire/rope.

 

[danielson]

I still think your reading into it, and taking it too literal.. Realize... After 30 seconds, he will pass out. If you want to kill this man, you will need to continue pulling on the wire, for 2-5 minutes before death is likely.

I dont think any of us are going to do that.

Lets settle down here, and get real.

We disagree... thats fine, lets do so like adults...

 

[actaeon277]

After a few seconds, his muscles could swell. Larynx could be crushed. Internal bleeding. These dont stop because the attacker stopped.

 

[tom1025]

You need to go back and read the "I"m going to kill the mother******" remarks before you say "Oh... he was just going to render him unconscious."

People don't use garrotes to render others unconscious. They use them to kill people.

Putting a garrote around someone's neck and strangling them is deadly force. Deadly force (shooting that person) is a proportional response to deadly force.

Find me a cop who will arrest me for shooting someone for strangling someone else with a garrote and have him post here. I'll be waiting. And I'll probably be waiting a long time.

I flat guarantee you, if it's YOUR WIFE being strangled with a garrote, you'd shoot the guy. If you wouldn't, then I'm sorry for anyone who would be married to you.

You being arrested would be up to the prosecutor. The whole wife thing dosnt apply since we are talking about walking up on two strangers. Let's try to stay the course.

 

[jbombelli]

I still think your reading into it, and taking it too literal.. Realize... After 30 seconds, he will pass out. If you want to kill this man, you will need to continue pulling on the wire, for 2-5 minutes before death is likely.

I dont think any of us are going to do that.

Lets settle down here, and get real.

We disagree... thats fine, lets do so like adults...

Well, then... When I walk up to the scene, and it's already happening, how am I supposed to know whether it's been going on for 30 seconds or 3 minutes if I didn't see how and when it started? How am I supposed to KNOW how long the guy being strangled has left? Would you want me to stand around and try to figure things out if it was a relative of yours being strangled? If it was YOU being strangled? I highly doubt it.

And I don't know if the guy doing the strangling is sober, on PCP or other drugs, sane, insane, being paid to do it... I have no idea whether kicking him or hitting him will really have any effect at all. I've seen someone take a severe beating and not be slowed down - adrenaline and task fixation are very powerful things. I've seen someone die from a single punch to the face. In the end, a garrote is deadly force, and deadly force is a perfectly proportional response to deadly force. Especially with all those unknowns in play.

If I was ever so unlucky as to actually come upon a scene like that, I'm not going to stand around and debate with myself, I'm not going to worry about whether he's on drugs or insane, or whether kicking him will have any effect, and I'm not going to give him any more time to potentially finish the job. I'm going to end it right there. And if it was you or your relative or loved one that was being victimized, would you have me do any differently?

You being arrested would be up to the prosecutor. The whole wife thing dosnt apply since we are talking about walking up on two strangers. Let's try to stay the course.

The first decision to arrest or not will be up to the cops who show up at the scene. Now, as far as the loved one vs. stranger thing goes... I've met you once, and saw your wife. But she's a complete stranger to me beyond that. I wouldn't recognize either one of you again if my life depended on it. Unless of course you really do look like Abe Lincoln holding an AR-15. LOL.

 

[danielson]

You do what you feel is right, and deal with the consequences afterwards.

Now if we stop hypothesizing this, the fact is, you would have shot a man, without trying to use less than lethal methods, resulting in the death of a young man who wasnt actually threatening anyone. Would you be in the wrong? I guess thats subjective, but your gonna have a hell of a time living with yourself after that.

This is why thought is always necessary when handling a firearm.. Theyre a stupidly high amount of responsibility.

I understand if your talking out of your ass, alot of people do that IN PERSON, let alone on the internet, but you continue to argue for a "shoot first worry later" mindset, and thats just not the way a responsible gun owner should be.

 

[jbombelli]

You do what you feel is right, and deal with the consequences afterwards.

Now if we stop hypothesizing this, the fact is, you would have shot a man, without trying to use less than lethal methods, resulting in the death of a young man who wasnt actually threatening anyone. Would you be in the wrong? I guess thats subjective, but your gonna have a hell of a time living with yourself after that.

This is why thought is always necessary when handling a firearm.. Theyre a stupidly high amount of responsibility.

I understand if your talking out of your ass, alot of people do that IN PERSON, let alone on the internet, but you continue to argue for a "shoot first worry later" mindset, and thats just not the way a responsible gun owner should be.

So a person strangling someone with a garrote isn't "...actually threatening anyone"?

REALLY? That tells me *ALL* I need to know about you.

You are dismissed. Be off with you.

 

[danielson]

So a person strangling someone with a garrote isn't "...actually threatening anyone"?

REALLY? That tells me *ALL* I need to know about you.

You are dismissed. Be off with you.

How very sad.