How many people here have a NFA gun trust?

[MadAngler1]

If so, what lawyer did you use and is it transferable to other states where NFA items are allowed?

I'm thinking of getting one for a suppressor.

Thanks

 

[minuteman32]

I do.

 

[t1545jh]

I am thinking of doing this as well. I contacted Timothy Kalamaros at contact@timothykalamaroslaw.com today about an NFA trust. I got his name and contact info from this site. He is from Mishawaka. He sent me alot of good info. Looks like the cost is about $600.

 

[LLDJR]

I do, i used Jon Spurr in Terre Haute

 

[rw496]

I did the Quicken thing myself and it passed

 

[ctbreitwieser]

Got mine from David Goldman, guntrustlawyer.com. It was $600, but worth every single penny. Their customer service is unbeatable, and they will make sure every single question you might have is answered. I highly recommend them.

 

[2tonic]

I did the Quicken thing myself and it passed

BATF approval of your transfer does NOT mean your trust is valid. It could be challenged at a later date. That is the best reason for using an attorney, so you can be sure.

Tim Kalamaros is an associate of David Goldmans' Guntrustlawyer.com. I used his services for my trust. Best $600 I ever spent, lets me sleep well at night.
Tim is a responsive and very informative gentleman.

 

[CountryBoy19]

BATF approval of your transfer does NOT mean your trust is valid. It could be challenged at a later date. That is the best reason for using an attorney, so you can be sure.

Tim Kalamaros is an associate of David Goldmans' Guntrustlawyer.com. I used his services for my trust. Best $600 I ever spent, lets me sleep well at night.
Tim is a responsive and very informative gentleman.

This ^^^

The ATF's approval of your item means you have a trust that looks like it might be legal and you're approved to transfer/make the Title II item. It has absolutely NO bearing on the legality of your trust, and in 15 years, your trust might be challenged and you'll be SOL with no support behind it.

Goldman (guntrustlawyer.com) and his IN attorney Tim Kalamaros are top-notch. If you want a trust that is mostly likely going to be able to transferred to other states with minimal or no changes I would recommend this route 100% because the main body of the trust is written with all states in mind and the details are tailored on a state-by-state basis. The very nature of how this trust is written makes it ideal for multi-state use if you think you might move in the future.

 

[MadAngler1]

This ^^^

The ATF's approval of your item means you have a trust that looks like it might be legal and you're approved to transfer/make the Title II item. It has absolutely NO bearing on the legality of your trust, and in 15 years, your trust might be challenged and you'll be SOL with no support behind it.

Goldman (guntrustlawyer.com) and his IN attorney Tim Kalamaros are top-notch. If you want a trust that is mostly likely going to be able to transferred to other states with minimal or no changes I would recommend this route 100% because the main body of the trust is written with all states in mind and the details are tailored on a state-by-state basis. The very nature of how this trust is written makes it ideal for multi-state use if you think you might move in the future.

I will be moving with 99% certainty in the next 2 years. That part is important to me, so I'll probably contact Tim Kalamaros.

Any more thoughts guys? Thanks for the info.

 

[CampingJosh]

and in 15 years, your trust might be challenged and you'll be SOL with no support behind it.

By whom? Who would challenge the trust? Who could challenge the trust?

Who has standing to challenge a trust while the grantor is still alive? Serious question here.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that a revocable trust cannot be legally challenged while the grantor is still alive. And how would someone get the trust document in order to challenge it, anyway? It's not public record.

I'm confused by this oft-made claim about DIY trusts. I think it may be (at least in part) a marketing ploy by trust lawyers.

 

[CountryBoy19]

By whom? Who would challenge the trust? Who could challenge the trust?

Who has standing to challenge a trust while the grantor is still alive? Serious question here.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that a revocable trust cannot be legally challenged while the grantor is still alive. And how would someone get the trust document in order to challenge it, anyway? It's not public record.

I'm confused by this oft-made claim about DIY trusts. I think it may be (at least in part) a marketing ploy by trust lawyers.

Practically anybody can challenge the legality of the trust as long as they have an interest. Government can if they think the trust violates laws, or the trust's legality can be challenged if they think it isn't a legal entity and therefore laws have been violated as a result. Trustees, beneficiaries, they can all challenge the trust, even if the grantor is alive given the right circumstances and/or the wrong terminology in the trust.

First of all, if you find out 15 years down the road that your computer generated trust has an "oops" in it and it was never legal in the first place you could find yourself in hot water. Depends how nice the ATF is going to play. There is a rumor that has been around for a few years about a guy that had a quicken trust. He had 2 Title II firearms on it, one of them being a relatively expensive transferable MG. He applied for a 3rd item and the ATF's legal department caught an "oops" in his trust and attempted confiscation of all his previous items. The rumor goes on to say that he contacted a lawyer (guntrustlawyer.com to be exact), spent a large chunk of change to have his trust amended (fixed) and got things wrapped up before the ATF could further pursue the confiscation. Now, that is only a rumor because it was never fully verified but it was a big thing on arfcom when it happened and there was a member claiming to personally know the guy and he verified that it was true. Take it for what you will. True story or not that isn't out of the realm of possibility and either outcome was a lose-lose. If his items got confiscated he lost. Or, as he did, he paid a lawyer to fix his trust and lost (all the money he attempted to save in the beginning by going with a computer trust).

Also, with quicken there is no way to add additional trustees but that is often what people want to get a trust for (that was my main reason). They often try to "play lawyer" and write additional trustees in. If they screw it up those trustees can be challenged by the ATF or any government entity for that matter for violating the law. If they aren't legitimate trustees they can't be in possession of said items. If writing those trustees in does happen to be legal, there is nothing to say that one might not turn on you and screw you over 15 years down the road. It would be really easy for one to do that if the trust doesn't limit their powers. It would be much easier if the trust language isn't written in a manner so as to allow the grantor/trustees to possess/use/transport the NFA items that are held in trust (as is the case with most quicken trusts).


For my trust I paid $600 and got the services of a local IN lawyer and a FL attorney that is VERY well versed in NFA firearms and legalities. Part of that $600 includes free advice for as long as I have my trust and David is still kicking (David has never hesitated to answer any questions I might have). It got me several customization options when putting it together. I added several trustees and they all have limited power so that if something happens, I'm still the supreme power of the trust. That got me a free amendment when I wanted to add another trustee as well. I have long forgotten about the $600 I paid and the added cost has more than paid off. My trust specifically says I can use the items even if it depreciates the value of them (quicken's trust says that trustees/grantor can only manage assets of the trust in a manner that will increase their value). The language of the trust specifically states how the items are to be handled if one or more of the beneficiaries are underage. The list goes on... I think you get the point...


There are MANY benefits to having a trust drawn up by a real lawyer that is well versed in NFA legalities. Especially in the OPs case I think he should contact guntrustlawyer.com (David Goldman) and talk to him. Out of all people I think David will be the best person to talk to in order to discuss how well a trust will transfer from IN to his future state of residence as it's very likely David also does trusts for that state as well. A computer program and/or a lawyer that focuses only on law in IN will not be able to go into great detail about any potential issues with moving the trust from IN to the other state as well as David could.

 

[2tonic]

^^^^^^^^^
This.
+10
Good Show, CB19!

 

[CampingJosh]

Practically anybody can challenge the legality of the trust as long as they have an interest. Government can if they think the trust violates laws, or the trust's legality can be challenged if they think it isn't a legal entity and therefore laws have been violated as a result. Trustees, beneficiaries, they can all challenge the trust, even if the grantor is alive given the right circumstances and/or the wrong terminology in the trust.

As long as the grantor of a revocable trust is alive, the beneficiary does not have an interest. The trust can be revoked at any time, so there isn't a legal interest there. The beneficiary can't sue to enforce the trust, because the trust is only at the will of the grantor.
And if the beneficiary believes that a revocable trust is not valid? That's an admission that the beneficiary doesn't have standing.
Trustees are employees of the trust; they don't have standing to challenge the trust, especially while the grantor is still alive. If they don't like it, they simply resign as the trustee.

So the only possible challenge is that a prosecutor somewhere has reason to believe that the trust is invalid and someone is therefore in possession of an unregistered NFA firearm.
The only way for a prosecutor to get a hold of your trust documents would be for you to turn them over (either to him, the ATF, or someone else who passed them along).

So if you're really really paranoid, the easy solution is to change the trust name, hit "print" again, sign again, and put no more than one NFA item in each trust.

Or you can follow the directions on the DIY trusts. They're not difficult. They have set up thousands of trusts that have been flawless. For my $550 (the difference between what it cost me and the $600 price mentioned above), I'll spend an hour or two carefully reading the directions.

I don't care how anyone else handles their own legal affairs. Your life is up to you. But I do want to make it clear that marketing claims (such as the Gun Trust Lawyer blog) are not the same as legal advice.

Nothing posted online by CampingJosh constitutes legal, accounting, gunsmithing, or other professional advice. Readers are encouraged to consult with qualified professionals for real advice.

Your life is lived at your own risk. Don't blame me for the dumb things you do.

 

[Clarity]

Grant Liston did mine. Heard about him on INGO.

 

[CountryBoy19]

So if you're really really paranoid, the easy solution is to change the trust name, hit "print" again, sign again, and put no more than one NFA item in each trust.

Maybe quicken has changed, but I actually bought the program before I got my trust because I had the same idea (save lots of money). I followed the directions to a T. But the program itself doesn't allow for ANY form of variation. It has only one form trust that inserts your info into blanks and then prints it out. It is nothing more than a VERY BASIC trust with your name inserted. If you don't care what happens to your NFA items after you pass and you don't intend to share them with other trustees while living then a quicken trust may do ok for you. But if you actually care about what happens after you pass and/or you want to share them with other trustees, good luck with your computer trust.

After seeing the differences in the quicken trust and the Goldman trust it is very obvious that its like buying an airsoft M4 vs. buying a Noveske M4. The difference is in the details. They both look somewhat similar on the surface but their function is completely different...

 

[CampingJosh]

Maybe quicken has changed

I don't have any idea. I used US Legal Forms.

 

[JOLLYKART]

Grant Liston did mine as well. As far as a transfer to another address, I think this would require some legal work. But I am no lawyer, just play on on the forum.

 

[jedi]

Practically anybody can challenge the legality of the trust as long as they have an interest. Government can if they think the trust violates laws, or the trust's legality can be challenged if they think it isn't a legal entity and therefore laws have been violated as a result. Trustees, beneficiaries, they can all challenge the trust, even if the grantor is alive given the right circumstances and/or the wrong terminology in the trust.

How would this work out? If a it was the .gov in the first place that looked at the trust and approved say a MG into the trust. Now 15 years later the .gov is trying to say the trust is not valid. Yet could not the agrument be made that same .gov OKed it 15 years ago by approving the MG into the trust. If they (.gov) had issues with the trust they should have spoken up 15 years prior and not allowed the MG into the trust.

I know CB that you are not an ATTY and neither am I so it's just a question for the masses. If I ever get into CLASS 3 stuff I do plan on going with an ATTY.

 

[downzero]

As long as the grantor of a revocable trust is alive, the beneficiary does not have an interest.

This seems to me to be quite a broad statement that may not mean what you think it means.

 

[yotewacker]

I would prefer a trust. But, I'm to old and to far along. A trust would get very expensive to do now.