Homeless man shot to death by police while “illegally camping” in NM foothills

[BigBoxaJunk]

Pragmatically, one shouldn't argue with a group of armed men that presumably are acting within the scope of the law. It too often results in tragedy, as demonstrated in the video clip.

I don't entirely agree with either Steveh or Freeman in their respective assessments that are entirely based entirely upon the story synopsis and video clip. Though there are some points of their arguments that I do agree.

It boils down to the question of a reasonable standard utilized by the police officers take this man into custody. Given the terrain, numbers of active LE on location, and the weaponry possessed by both sides, etc, there certainly is enough room to further examine the matter. Additionally, while the police don't have a duty to retreat, they do in fact have a duty to exercise the aforementioned reasonable standard in keeping with Graham v. O'Conner and Tennessee v. Garner.

Would I have utilized a flash-bang grenade to prevent him from leaving? No.

Would I have shot the man, given the terrain and distance from the man? No again.

Would I have arrested him for trespass, after his refusal to leave? Yes.

Would I have had to arrest him right then and right there? No.

Could I have bided my time and catch him in a more desirable location? Yes.

Very good points, all of them. Not sure if that part has really been discussed; the part about why they needed to immediately take the guy into custody. Yes, maybe he did or had threatened people, but the only ones that were actually threatened at the time were the trained officers who did have the option to not get close enough to be in the imminent danger that they found themselves in.

 

[88GT]

Very good points, all of them. Not sure if that part has really been discussed; the part about why they needed to immediately take the guy into custody. Yes, maybe he did or had threatened people, but the only ones that were actually threatened at the time were the trained officers who did have the option to not get close enough to be in the imminent danger that they found themselves in.

I've addressed the RFN approach of LE in other threads. So far it's not been satisfactorily answered, IMO. I would wager money that there's a fair bit of "you WILL respect my authority" in it though.

 

[traderdan]

Very little time is spent considering the civil rights, and worrying for the health and welfare of the junkies and vagrants...by the LEOs that I came to know while living in Northern NM.

Tribal police are pretty brutal..

 

[Destro]

Would I have had to arrest him right then and right there? No.

Could I have bided my time and catch him in a more desirable location? Yes.

while there is the legal aspect, I believe someone who choses to engage in an hours long standoff with law enforcement warrants evaluation by medical professionals. Regardless of accused criminal acts, just "letting him go" was no longer an option.

 

[Destro]

Tribal police are pretty brutal..

their clientele frequently is as well.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

while there is the legal aspect, I believe someone who choses to engage in an hours long standoff with law enforcement warrants evaluation by medical professionals. Regardless of accused criminal acts, just "letting him go" was no longer an option.

I think the space that lies between "letting him go" and "taking him down right then and there" might be worth exploring, though.

 

[traderdan]

their clientele frequently is as well.

No doubt....In some places the west is still pretty wild.

 

[lucky4034]

Pragmatically, one shouldn't argue with a group of armed men that presumably are acting within the scope of the law. It too often results in tragedy, as demonstrated in the video clip.

I don't entirely agree with either Steveh or Freeman in their respective assessments that are entirely based entirely upon the story synopsis and video clip. Though there are some points of their arguments that I do agree.

It boils down to the question of a reasonable standard utilized by the police officers take this man into custody. Given the terrain, numbers of active LE on location, and the weaponry possessed by both sides, etc, there certainly is enough room to further examine the matter. Additionally, while the police don't have a duty to retreat, they do in fact have a duty to exercise the aforementioned reasonable standard in keeping with Graham v. O'Conner and Tennessee v. Garner.

Would I have utilized a flash-bang grenade to prevent him from leaving? No.

Would I have shot the man, given the terrain and distance from the man? No again.

Would I have arrested him for trespass, after his refusal to leave? Yes.

Would I have had to arrest him right then and right there? No.

Could I have bided my time and catch him in a more desirable location? Yes.

Here... let me give you Kirk's rebuttal.

"These officers were within their legal rights to choose the most destructive outcome they could come up with"

 

[lucky4034]

I think the space that lies between "letting him go" and "taking him down right then and there" might be worth exploring, though.

Exactly... they had a million different options and chose to corner the wild animal and then execute it when it stood its ground. How ****ing smart were these cops?

They shot the man with "non-lethal" bean bags... AFTER he was lifeless from being shot by "lethal" .223 rounds in the thorax. If that isn't a clue that these guys FAILED at their job... I don't know what is? That is a new level of incompetence.

Come on INGO PD... please tell me where you were taught awesome tactics like that?

"Hey Bubba... I think you shot'em dead"

"I don't know Gerald, but we better make sure... let's chut'em with one of them bean bags and see if he moves"

 

[Trooper]

Very little time is spent considering the civil rights, and worrying for the health and welfare of the junkies and vagrants...by the LEOs that I came to know while living in Northern NM.

Tribal police are pretty brutal..

Doubtfully that they are not more brutal than LAPD. Or Chicago PD or NYPD.

 

[IndyDave1776]

All the armchair quarterbacking in this thread is fun. So many people with zero or limited experience with the law or enforcing it are telling professionals they are wrong. I have no dog in the fight, but the professionals are the only one who have remained consistent in their responses throughout this thread.

The biggest irritation I face on the job is having practitioners of law enforcement who are absolutely incapable of doing my job dictating to me under the force of law how I will do it to their satisfaction. No sympathy here.

 

[Trooper]

The biggest irritation I face on the job is having practitioners of law enforcement who are absolutely incapable of doing my job dictating to me under the force of law how I will do it to their satisfaction. No sympathy here.

I am trying to think of a job that LEOs would be dictating how you do it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Trucker?

 

[Trooper]

Trucker?

Or prostitute

 

[Dirtebiker]

Somebody already brought it up.. but I do wonder why non-lethal avenues weren't pursued. Seems this would have been a perfect time to attempt to use a taser. Killing a man should be a last resort, IMO.

They used bean bags...







....after shooting him with real bullets!

 

[Dirtebiker]

This case is only about property rights, which are the essence of Liberty.

Boyd hated property rights. The police are acting as the Guardians of our sacred property rights.

Boyd had no right to be where he was, thus he had no right to self-defense.

Maybe I'm missing something. I thought he was on public land, no?

 

[IndyDave1776]

Maybe I'm missing something. I thought he was on public land, no?

You apparently missed the memo. At some point, public (i.e., belonging to the people in common) land became the King's land which we mere plebeians are permitted to use only at the pleasure of the King.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Trucker?

Or prostitute

Sorry Trooper, Kirk wins the gold star this time. Perhaps I should have specified, but it comes up enough that I didn't think it necessary.

 

[Trooper]

Sorry Trooper, Kirk wins the gold star this time. Perhaps I should have specified, but it comes up enough that I didn't think it necessary.

truckers and prostitutes go together. Lots of lot lizards out there.

 

[IndyDave1776]

truckers and prostitutes go together. Lots of lot lizards out there.

Not in my truck they don't! I don't need the moral degradation, I don't need robbed by the BF hiding just out of sight waiting on me to open the locked door, and I don't need, well, anything that won't wash off, and I certainly don't need anything that does not go away with medical treatment. Consider my truck a reptile-free zone!