Home security sytems/cameras?

[daddymikey1975]

Had to point that out, now back to reading the rest of your post, i really appreciate all the help i am getting in this thread so far.

epic fail !!

Don't have to give an address.. feel free to just draw some 'blueprints'.. heh..

As a side note, some of the best I.T. security geeks are the ones that used to be hackers

 

[melensdad]

Here is my basic DVR (cost about $350):

FWIW, the DVR I use at my house is a 16 channel system, cost is closer to $2000 for that unit, it is more flexible, more programable, but this little unit is actually pretty darn good.


This is the Power Supply that powers the cameras/illuminators:

By the way, video surveillance systems should be mounted inside a SECURED closet or SECURED area. If that can't be done then you can get steel boxes that contain them and those can be mounted to the wall and locked.

 

[Tactical Dave]

I have never been a fan of the provided steel boxes for the security systems, pretty easy to pop open in my opinion. Good tip is to mount them like you would a safe, mount so that you can't get a crowbar in the door, or at least very difficult. I have seen boxes also mounted with the wiring exposed...........

 

[melensdad]

For cameras... let's begin with this link:

Foscam interior wireless IP cameras

Foscam Exterior wireless IP cameras

Now.. you can get these cameras (I'm going to get 2 interior and 2 exterior.. those will suit my needs perfectly) and set them up to record when they detect motion.. they are very customizable. You can control pan/tilt/zoom with them from any web connected computer or cellular device. There is also an android app you can get to "arm" the cameras and control them via an app.

I am not a fan at all of wireless security systems.

I also don't like all wireless anything. Mine is all hardwired.

The cameras in the above link are the type of cameras I really dislike. First, they are not armored so they are not vandal proof. Second they are wireless and pretty easily hackable. Third, they are lower resolution than I'd like. Fourth, their infrared capabilities seem pretty weak. Fifth, the Pan/Tilt/Zoom feature is a nice toy but really not practical UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY SPEND YOUR LIFE watching your camera. A commercial grade PTZ camera can cost several thousand dollars, what kind of quality/reliability can you expect from a $100 PTZ over the long run? Not much I think.

Think about remote pan/tilt cameras for a few minutes. They are pointed in 1 direction 99.9% of the time. The ONLY time the features are used is actually when you are viewing them. So counting on them is actually pretty pointless because you literally never are using the features (well maybe you are that 0.1% of the time). You are FAR BETTER OFF buying 2 cameras and covering the area properly than using one of these when the reality is that you will likely miss the 'event' because it happened when you were NOT monitoring the camera. The real users of Pan/Tilt/Zoom are places that have ACTIVE MONITORING by a security team in a room full of monitors.

I know of several people who have PTZ cameras and have NEVER caught an event in progress with them but have had events. Think about it rationally. Its virtually impossible to do it. Remember the camera is only pointed in 1 direction 99.9% of the time so if you are trying to cover a large area the odds are you may have the camera pointed in the wrong direction because you rely on these PTZs to cover an area too wide to cover with a single camera.

If you need to cover an area that is too wide to cover with a single camera, and therefore want to try to do it with a PTZ, you are FAR BETTER OFF buying 2 cameras to cover the area.

I have never been a fan of the provided steel boxes for the security systems, pretty easy to pop open in my opinion. Good tip is to mount them like you would a safe, mount so that you can't get a crowbar in the door, or at least very difficult. I have seen boxes also mounted with the wiring exposed...........

The boxes are better than nothing. And there will almost always be some exposed wiring with camera systems. One would logically presume that if you are caught on camera the burglar alarm has already been triggered and the police are already on the way. You are simply trying to DELAY theft of your equipment so that the police get there before the burglars get the equipment.

Further, as for the exposed wires, even if you surface mount everything and they cut every wire, the fact is that they should have already had their images recorded on the DVR and all you need is one or two good face shots to provide to the police.

Security is a system of layers. Cameras take images of them while they are outside. Locks, reinforced door frames, window film keep them from attaining easy entry but all can eventually be defeated. Alarms should trigger before they make entry but while they are attempting it. Etc.

 

[Tactical Dave]

Agreed on all points just find it funny on how flimsy the boxes are.

 

[daddymikey1975]

Basically, when I would use the PTZ feature is if I'm away from home and want to look around at my home if someone were babysitting my kids or whatever..

I also feel that it doesn't matter what type of camera you have (generally speaking) because if the bad guys are in the house, the cameras better be in a position to capture info.

I have my security system installed in such a fashion that before they get to the main level of my house, I'll know about it. (this assumes they come in from the basement or upstairs).

I would have my cameras installed (indoors to begin with) in such a fashion that their images would be captured as soon as they go for my goodies. Outside, the cameras should be positioned in areas of entry so as to capture them coming in, or at a point of exit so as to capture them leaving.

Also, I believe in off site storage at any expense. This means that it doesn't matter what type of cameras you have because by the time they get into the house to get "recorded" the image is already stored off site securely. Let them smash the cameras and take them. Let them trash my house looking for that expensive $2000 DVR.. they ain't gonna find it. If I was in a house that had cameras, I'd try at all costs to get the DVR or destroy it.. a very powerful electromagnet can destroy a hard drive based DVR in short order. (look up an old CRT degausser)

The trick to any cameras (expensive or not) is similar to the rules of security system motion detector installation, which is similar to real estates rules... Location, Location, Location. You must look at your home's vulnerabilities and determine how/where a thief would potentially enter BESIDES your front or back door. For example, my house sat empty for almost 4 yrs before we moved in. Prior to us moving in, someone kicked in a basement window (no kidding ??) and stole the A/C coil from the furnace (for the copper).. Undoubtedly I have a motion detector in my basement that will trip if someone comes in any of the 4 windows. Think efficiently w/ camera placement... If someone were to walk through your home heading for the living room (or wherever the goodies are) you wanna camera that catches them before they realize it.

For me, there are 3 entry points to my living room. Front door, kitchen, and hall area. If I place a camera in the right location, I can get someone coming into my living room (looking for my laptops and TV) with a single camera. If I can't get a decent shot with one camera, I'll add a second one. I'll put one in my kitchen to watch the door that leads to my basement and back door. This will grab someone coming up the basement steps (or in from the back door which faces the alley)...

Spending thousands on cameras is dumb if the storage isn't secured OFF SITE. If I broke into a house, I wouldn't waste time w/ the camera power supply. You're already on camera. I'd go straight for the storage.

Seriously though, think about this... If I'm casing the joint, I got a game plan.. I'm gonna cut your phone line first (your alarm dials out w/ it) and I'm gonna cut your cable line (in case you use IP transmitter).. I'll go into the house hoping the security system doesn't have a GSM transmitter (in this case, I'm screwed but I got about 15 seconds to get to it and disable it..ask how I know and ask why in a later post).... Now that I (might) have the alarm situated, if there are cameras I'll have my buddy scoop up the goodies w/ comforters and pillow cases while I go look for the DVR or other recording equipment.. If I can't take the DVR, I'll use a degauss coil to trash the hard drive and a few whacks w/ a crow bar just for good measure.

This is just one of several possible scenarios.. Casing a joint can reveal lots of info about a place to see how secure it is... for your typical smash and grab (which most burglaries around me seem to be).. my security system is fine. For anything else, I have insurance and hope that I'm not home. If I'm home then I'll have to call the coroner as well as the police

 

[Tactical Dave]

In my opinion getting an alarm system that is wireless as in not wired to your phone line is a wise idea compared to one that is wired to the phone...

I am told that if it is wired to phone and armed and that if the line is cut that the alarm company still gets the signal.

Now the flip side is that if you have off site storage and someone cuts the line for your provider outside then guess what.... No way for off site to get the feed because your Internet is down.

Yes there is allways a way around things but there are ways to make it a lot harder on a thief, I know of a few that make cutting the line harder but again there are ways even around that. My goal is to make it as hard on the thief as I can to the point that most would rather look elsewhere.

 

[eeadams]

Hey man,

I actually work in the security industry. I worked for 5 years for an IP camera manufacturer and now work for a software solution that manages the cameras. PM me and I'll get you my cell # and I can answer any questions you may have. The company website is Surveillance Cloud Video CCTV from Smartvue (888) 754-4543.

Mine is just one of many...not trying to pitch you on my stuff...I don't care if you use it but I certainly want to make sure that you have the info so you can figure out what you need.

 

[melensdad]

Don't forget the SIREN on the outside of your home to alert your neighbors.

We had a false alarm once and my neighbors were so quick to call me that they beat the call from the alarm company, thanks to the siren!

As for indoor cameras, they are almost never used inside a home. That is a simple fact. If I get an alarm call I'm more worried about the police getting to the house, and me getting to the house, than sitting on my iPhone watching from a coffee shop. I'm heading out the door!!!

Hey man,

I actually work in the security industry. I worked for 5 years for an IP camera manufacturer and now work for a software solution that manages the cameras. . .

Glad to see we have an expert joining the thread. But please don't communicate by PM. Lets get all the information out there so we can all learn. I'm just a geek, but I'd love to learn a lot more. I see you have AXIS cameras, those are very nice cameras!!!

 

[daddymikey1975]

As for indoor cameras, they are almost never used inside a home. That is a simple fact. If I get an alarm call I'm more worried about the police getting to the house, and me getting to the house, than sitting on my iPhone watching from a coffee shop. I'm heading out the door!!!

The off site video can be recovered after an incident to help identify the perps.. not grab the phone while a situation is in progress

 

[melensdad]

The off site video can be recovered after an incident to help identify the perps.. not grab the phone while a situation is in progress

First, I never disputed off site storage, I simply said I have my DVRs in secured areas.

As for the quality of the cameras, you need the best you can afford because most are really crappy! Seriously, a 540 TVL camera does not have enough resolution to positively identify a person standing still at 20' away from the camera. So even if you have offsite storage you have a crappy image stored offsite, what good is that?

But as for the PTZ cameras, they are pretty worthless for homeowners as security devices to monitor areas based on all that I have already written. Simply put, if you are not actually controlling the camera then its simply pointed at one spot. What good is that if you need to cover an area wider than the PTZ can cover? I'm not going to retype it but I don't believe in them for all the reasons previously mentioned. Very few security companies install indoor cameras as part of security systems, that is simple fact, fewer use PTZs in homes. Me, I have more than a dozen cameras on the perimeter of my home, several with good overlapping views. I'd rather have 2 or 3 decent cameras (700TLV, auto-iris, IR, Sony EFFIO chipset, minimum 1/3" CCD) than a similar number of crappy Pan/Tilt/Zoom cameras.

If you want a PTZ for watching your babysitter then that is a whole different story.

 

[eeadams]

Glad to see we have an expert joining the thread. But please don't communicate by PM. Lets get all the information out there so we can all learn. I'm just a geek, but I'd love to learn a lot more. I see you have AXIS cameras, those are very nice cameras!!![/QUOTE]

Point taken! I'll keep on the main screen.

There are a couple of points that I'd have to agree with on these threads.
1. The quality of your image is only as good as the resolution of your camera. If you see a description that includes TVL (TV lines), I'd say stay away. IP megapixel cameras have much higher resolution than the best analog cameras (TVL cameras) and the price continues to drop. If you buy it at Frye's or Costco, you'll probably be disappointed.
2. Stay away from wireless (yes I know, it's on my website) if you have any other options. There's too much traffic and too many walls in most places to guarantee a consistent signal and if you're spending the money on a security system, you'd hate to find out that the signal dropped when you needed it most.
3. PTZ (pan, tilt, zoom) cameras won't do you much good if you're not "manning the desk" all the time. The camera only records where it's pointed and it's Murphy's law that it will be looking the wrong way when something happens.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

While I do realize that what I am about to interject is sub-par to the solution being discussed, I've been using a hires webcam with free software called TeboCam. It is a flexible system which allows monitoring/security in it's most basic form, via a pc camera device. Upon detecting movement (you can set areas within the image, and sensitivity) it will email out or post images to an ftp/website. This is the lowest of the low, but helps with piece of mind for those with little to no budget. I went this route when I saw a blurb on the news about a break-in in Pittsboro. The crappy images that came off that camera wound up busting the perps within a few days. Realizing 'hey, I have a webcam, maybe I should do this', I went and found tebocam, and have been using it for the past 9 months or so.
It clearly is not as hi-tech, nor as high quality/thorough as what is currently being discussed. The image depends solely on the camera... but on a small budget, it works for varying needs. At one point I used it to find out which of our animals was pissing on the carpet while we were away.
What I like about the software is, that by emailing or posting the image to the web, you still have images should the thief get away with your webcam and computer...

 

[Brandon]

I have a swann system. Like mentioned to get a positive id of someone standing still more then 20 feet or so away is almost impossible don't let that be a total deal breaker of buying such a system. For one thing at the very least it will give you a vague idea of who or what you are looking for and if they were in a car or van or truck. If it is in the day light then you will have more to work with with colors and such.

I can view mine from anywhere in the world as long as I have internet access.. I can log in and play back video for the past 30 days.

Also make sure where ever you get your cameras from the wiring is hard to get to so somone can not just come up from behind and disable your system. Some cameras still have the wiring coming out the back instead of staying inside the base. But again, not 100% fool proof.

 

[melensdad]

1. The quality of your image is only as good as the resolution of your camera. If you see a description that includes TVL (TV lines), I'd say stay away. IP megapixel cameras have much higher resolution than the best analog cameras (TVL cameras) and the price continues to drop. If you buy it at Frye's or Costco, you'll probably be disappointed.

Yes the IP cameras are the way to go if you have the budget for them, if not then the best of the consumer grade analog cameras can be had for $90 to $500 (depending on style and features).

IP cameras are probably going to start at $500+ each.

 

[melensdad]

I have a swann system. Like mentioned to get a positive id of someone standing still more then 20 feet or so away is almost impossible . . .

this is something most people don't understand. It is also why I think it is so important to get the 700TVL cameras. Also the auto iris features so it adjusts itself for lighting conditions/sunlight/glare. Many cheap/low features do not have auto iris.