Hassled by Buffalo Wild Wings for OC at Dupont, Fort Wayne

[wag1911]

To me he handled this perfectly-kudos.

I think we learned that if asked to leave that we should ask for 'to-go' boxes for our food, pay the bill, and never come back.

 

[ATM]

It must make you guys feel good to push the limits,

Sometimes I drive right at 55 mph in a 55 mph zone. Should I fear that this will get the speed limit reduced to 50?

...then stand there with your hands on your hips (Errol Flynn like) and shout "I am in my rights!!"

That's how I do it, and it does feel pretty good.

IMO, you gain nothing by doing this. "They" can just change the law....

That seems silly, but if they do

...I'll still push the limit and drive 50.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I understand completely. You would be asked to leave in this scenario. And they have every right to ask you to leave with the legal authority to exercise that right. However, Finite was saying earlier that the proprietor has the right to ask you to cover up, and that somehow you are legally obligated to cover up since it is their property. I was saying you are not. They have no legal authority to demand you behave in a certain way in their establishment if what you are doing is legal across the board. However, you WOULD be legally obligated to leave if asked. I don't believe anyone is arguing that. The same would go for private property (ie. someone's home).

He has the legal authority to ask whatever he wants to ask. If an establishment requires that every customer must wear a pink tutu, army boots, and a Carmen Miranda hat, your choice as a customer is to comply or go elsewhere. He does not have the legal authority to force you to do what he asks, other than by saying you must leave if you don't do so.

That's how I interpret it, anyway. YMMV.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

BW3 in Jeffersonville, by the basspro shop has an nice sign 'banning' the carry of a concealed or open carry handgun. I just turned around and went to hooters. In the future I will continue to go to beef o' bradys or other eating establishment.

Did you tell them why you didn't patronize their business? You just going elsewhere won't be noticed unless you're a regular, and even then, they won't know why you stopped coming in.

 

[mk2ja]

Perhaps instead of having an OC lunch at BWW, we should have an OC lunch at one of the other places where we Fort Waynians have had lunches before, but make the first activity of the gathering be that all of us walk in to BWW, each of us hand them one of those "no guns -> no business" cards and then walk out. Otherwise, wouldn't we be rewarding them for harassing OCers? (This would apply to any post-encounter OC gathering, not just this one.)

 

[ATM]

He has the legal authority to ask whatever he wants to ask. If an establishment requires that every customer must wear a pink tutu, army boots, and a Carmen Miranda hat, your choice as a customer is to comply or go elsewhere. He does not have the legal authority to force you to do what he asks, other than by saying you must leave if you don't do so.

That's how I interpret it, anyway. YMMV.

Blessings,
Bill

The right and the authority are different. Authority, to me, means that there is a direct and legal means to establish compliance.

The only weight of the clothing requirements he sets forth (per his rights) is that he does have the authority to establish compliance of another alternative - to ultimately make you leave.

His right to specify clothing (as with any other requirement he has the right to ask for) is only indirectly related to his authority, which is much more limited in scope.

 

[Sgt Rock]

I'm gonna take crap but it needs to be said: That manager was in a lose-lose situation. Corporate policy says "No guns", so he tries to do what is right. In his defense, he WAS very discrete and private in attempting to enforce those rules. Why not simply pull your shirt over your piece and enjoy your meal? This scenario had the potential to give 2A proponents a black eye. You could have been escorted out by the police in front of everybody. You have the right to carry a handgun, he has the right to say "Not here". IMO, you just rubbed his face in it, possibly creating another anti-gun voice.

 

[E'villeGunner]

Clearly it was the "Rose-Hulman Fightin' Engineers" polo shirt that convinced him you were a threat. Everyone knows we are BAD mofo's...

RHIT '92

Yeah, I was thinkin' it was the Rose-Hulman factor also.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I'm gonna take crap but it needs to be said: That manager was in a lose-lose situation. Corporate policy says "No guns", so he tries to do what is right. In his defense, he WAS very discrete and private in attempting to enforce those rules. Why not simply pull your shirt over your piece and enjoy your meal? This scenario had the potential to give 2A proponents a black eye. You could have been escorted out by the police in front of everybody. You have the right to carry a handgun, he has the right to say "Not here". IMO, you just rubbed his face in it, possibly creating another anti-gun voice.

Coporate policy is right but we have nothing saying this is a coporate owned store, manager could have asked him to leave, in fact IIRC the OP asked a couple of times if the manager wanted him to leave.

 

[SirRealism]

It must make you guys feel good to push the limits, then stand there with your hands on your hips (Errol Flynn like) and shout "I am in my rights!!"

IMO, you gain nothing by doing this. "They" can just change the law....

Yes, Sir. I agree.

They can do it, whether I choose to follow that law is my decision, but it will be a private decision. And "they" won't know about the decision that I have made......

I am the ultimate, former govment employee cynic.......

So let me understand this. You chastise someone for following the long-standing law and asserting a right... because "they" might change the law... and then you imply that you might not follow that law if they do change it? So it sounds as though, either way, the law doesn't matter.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you said.

 

[finity]

Am I, the t-shirt wearer, in the wrong for not complying with the property owner's wishes?

Yes.

You are in the wrong.

You don't have any rights to free speech while on someone else's private property.

What, you thought I was going to agree with you because you played the "O"-card?



Also, to answer the question about the PDA by gay men:

If the owner of the establishment asks you to stop then I don't see how you have any "right" to continue. The same would be true of PDA by two heterosexuals, also.

Are you really trying to say that if my wife & I decided to engage in some very heavy petting that it would be OK to just ignore the request by the manager to stop? Are you saying that if I did ignore them & continued then others wouldn't think more poorly of ME?

Again, did you think I would say differently because you played the gay-card?



It's true that they don't have the ability to "make" you do anything other than leave but just because the owner didn't take that ultimate step doesn't mean that you still wouldn't be an ass for continuing to act in opposiion to the PRIVATE property owners wishes.

The manager didn't handle it poorly, Mk2ja did. I think the manager handled it professionally. And Mk2ja acted like an ass...

Mk2ja, If you think differently then why don't I just come in to your house & proclaim loudly & repeatedly that Christianity is the cause of all the worlds ills & that anybody who follows it should be thrown in the loony bin? I mean, don't I have the right to freedom of religion & free speech, even in YOUR house?

If you asked me to stop & I refused wouldn't you think I was being an ass if I made you ask me to leave before I complied?

 

[Rookie]

There's a difference that you're missing. If you came to my house acting like an ass, I wouldn't ask you to stop. I would tell you to leave. If I asked you to stop, you refused, and I walked away allowing you to continue, who would be the ass?

And no, I don't think you would be an ass for having to ask me to leave. I would be more impressed that you were willing to stand by your convictions instead of being spineless.

The manager was spineless. Instead of, "cover it, take it to your car, or leave", he got," well gee mister, what do you want to do?"

 

[bglaze]

Yes.

You are in the wrong.

You don't have any rights to free speech while on someone else's private property.

What, you thought I was going to agree with you because you played the "O"-card?



Also, to answer the question about the PDA by gay men:

If the owner of the establishment asks you to stop then I don't see how you have any "right" to continue. The same would be true of PDA by two heterosexuals, also.

Are you really trying to say that if my wife & I decided to engage in some very heavy petting that it would be OK to just ignore the request by the manager to stop? Are you saying that if I did ignore them & continued then others wouldn't think more poorly of ME?

Again, did you think I would say differently because you played the gay-card?



It's true that they don't have the ability to "make" you do anything other than leave but just because the owner didn't take that ultimate step doesn't mean that you still wouldn't be an ass for continuing to act in opposiion to the PRIVATE property owners wishes.

The manager didn't handle it poorly, Mk2ja did. I think the manager handled it professionally. And Mk2ja acted like an ass...

Mk2ja, If you think differently then why don't I just come in to your house & proclaim loudly & repeatedly that Christianity is the cause of all the worlds ills & that anybody who follows it should be thrown in the loony bin? I mean, don't I have the right to freedom of religion & free speech, even in YOUR house?

If you asked me to stop & I refused wouldn't you think I was being an ass if I made you ask me to leave before I complied?

If he or anyone doesn't like the way you were acting in their home, they would ask you to quit or leave. It's that simple. That's all they have a right to do. We aren't debating etiquette here (being an ass or not), we are debating rights and legality.

Holding hands ain't no heavy petting.

Asking to wear an apron, because of a mild political statement would be crossing the line in an open-to-the-public establishment.

I don't usually end my retorts with a personal insult, because it's usually bad form. But here it seems fitting.

You sir, are insane.

 

[Wabatuckian]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...fense/139281-open_carry_places_and_times.html

When? Where?

 

[bglaze]

He has the legal authority to ask whatever he wants to ask. If an establishment requires that every customer must wear a pink tutu, army boots, and a Carmen Miranda hat, your choice as a customer is to comply or go elsewhere. He does not have the legal authority to force you to do what he asks, other than by saying you must leave if you don't do so.

That's how I interpret it, anyway. YMMV.

Blessings,
Bill

Semantics...

Manager did ask that the patron cover up his garment; the patron refused. Manager did not ask him to leave, so the patron stayed, ate, and paid.

The manager cannot now take him to court and sue him, because he did not comply to his 'authority' by covering up. He wouldn't do this, because he has no legal authority in this area.

The only legal avenue he would have had to insure his wishes were met would be to ask him to leave, which even the manager thought wasn't appropriate in the end.

So, since he cannot take him to court over refusing to cover up, I still say his only authority is to ask him to leave. No one is arguing this point.

 

[maxmayhem]

wow

I would contact BWW and see if the manager had the authority to demand you leave. We have to get to the bottom of requests like this to see if we have to leave or not. This concerns me.

At approximately 2200 hours on 11 MAR 2011, I entered Buffalo Wild Wings on Dupont Road in Fort Wayne with a friend and a friend of his whom I had only met that night.

The restaurant was not busy, so we quickly were seated at the table closest to the north east corner of the building (not counting the booths along the wall). Each of us removed our jacket and hung it on the back of the chair. While we decided what to order, we took turns making a trip to wash up; I went last.

We placed and received our orders. Around the time we'd consumed about three quarters of our meals, a man who appeared to be a manager—though he never introduced himself or identified himself as such—approached our table and knelt beside the empty side of the table. Speaking in a lowered voice, he asked how we were all doing. We were doing fine, we assured him. He then moved on to his primary topic of discussion.

Unfortunately, I did not record this conversation, so I cannot provide exact quotes, but they express the sentiment and flow of the conversation.

Addressing me directly, the presumed manager stated that he did not know if I was a cop or if I had a permit. Then he informed me that he had received word from more than one patron that the sight of my openly displayed, holstered sidearm made them uncomfortable. He asked if there was any way I could cover it up.

I politely declined.

Pressing, he then asked if I would go place my sidearm in my vehicle.

Again, I politely declined.

The manager continued to reiterate these two requests multiple times. "Sir, I'm not sure why you're arguing with me. I'm politely asking you to simply cover it up or go put it in your car."

Each time, I politely declined. "I understand that. I will not be doing either of those things."

At one point in the midst of this, our waitress, Kayla, brought another iced tea to the table. Seeing her manager, smiling, she asked jovially, "Are you bothering my table?" He nodded yes and continued his requests; she turned and left.

"I just want to make my other customers comfortable."

"Why don't you take this opportunity to explain to them that I am not doing anything wrong, that I am not acting suspiciously, and that there is no reason to be uncomfortable?"

"I'm just asking you to cover it up or go put it in your car."

"I will not be doing either of those things. But I'll tell you what, if you want me to leave, I will comply with that request. But if you ask me to leave, I will not be paying for this food. Would you like me to leave?"

"I can just write down your plate number. But, I just want you to cover it up and go put it in your car. Would you like a cop to come take care of this?"

I was unconcerned with his threat. "I'm not doing anything illegal, but if you ask me to leave, I'll honor that request because this is your establishment."

At no time did this man ask, instruct, or imply that I should leave. After several rounds of him asking and me declining, he stood and declared that he would be calling a cop to "come take care of this. They'll be here in a minute."

As the presumed manager walked away, the friend of my friend looked at me and asked what that was all about. Sarcastically, I replied, "Somebody is unhappy that I have my gun visible to the entire restaurant," and I gestured with my left hand at the dining area. Then came an ironic remark, "Oh, I didn't even know you had a gun!"

You see, the sidearm was on my right hip, towards the corner, and was not visible to more than the three tables/booths along the wall in the corner. My own friend knows I always carry, often openly, but the topic of whether I was carrying had not come up since the time I met his friend.

We took our time finishing our meals, and when we were nearly done with our meals, I asked Kayla for our checks. We paid for our meals and then left. The time was 2300 hours.

No cops arrived.

But I won't be returning.

 

[ATM]

I would contact BWW and see if the manager had the authority to demand you leave. We have to get to the bottom of requests like this to see if we have to leave or not. This concerns me.

If he had demanded for him to leave, then yes - you either leave or face trespassing charges.

But he wasn't told to leave in this case.

 

[maxmayhem]

Questions and comments

Things that stand out to me here are:


"I just want to make my other customers comfortable."

He was willing to make you uncomfortable for exercising your constitutional rights and your license to carry rights

"I can just write down your plate number. But, I just want you to cover it up and go put it in your car. Would you like a cop to come take care of this?"

This was a threat, bluff, or lie. He obviously does not know how to handle this issue and his corporate office should be contacted.

"come take care of this. They'll be here in a minute."
I am sure BWW does not want managers to lie to employees. He lied in an effort to bully you into an action that he wanted


Then came an ironic remark, "Oh, I didn't even know you had a gun!"

Who said this? It is unclear to me.

 

[mk2ja]

Things that stand out to me here are:


"I just want to make my other customers comfortable."

He was willing to make you uncomfortable for exercising your constitutional rights and your license to carry rights

"I can just write down your plate number. But, I just want you to cover it up and go put it in your car. Would you like a cop to come take care of this?"

This was a threat, bluff, or lie. He obviously does not know how to handle this issue and his corporate office should be contacted.

"come take care of this. They'll be here in a minute."
I am sure BWW does not want managers to lie to employees. He lied in an effort to bully you into an action that he wanted


Then came an ironic remark, "Oh, I didn't even know you had a gun!"

Who said this? It is unclear to me.

The friend of my friend was the one who didn't know I was carrying. He was sitting in the seat to my left (it was a small, 4-seat table). My friend was sitting across from me, and the manager came and knelt to my right.

I think you are right - I should go talk to the store and make it known the manager handled situation poorly. There was no need to keep asking and asking and asking when I'd already stated that I wasn't going to cover or disarm.

 

[snowman46919]

I don't think disarming in this situation is ever advisable because then everyone and their brother would now know you have a gun in your car just ripe for the taking. I know several people that had their cars broken into even in the better areas of fort wayne and a gun would just be way to tempting for some people.