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  • miguel

    Grandmaster
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    12   0   0
    Oct 24, 2008
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    16T
    I went to a "current events" function at Miss Miguel's school today. Each student was to select a topic of interest, research it and make a pitch for it. It was like a science fair for social issues, if you will. The parents' job was to make the rounds, have each kid present their cause and ask questions about the issue to see how the kids would handle it. As a backgrounder, these are eighth graders.

    There were plenty of generic ones about the endangered water supply of the world, loss of rain forests, dog fighting, etc. While making the rounds, one in particular caught my attention however: gun control! "LET'S GO!" I said to Mrs. Miguel. :D

    Once there, I asked the young man what his issue was. "Gun control." he said. He then went into detail about how at gun shows, anyone who is over 18 can buy a gun with no background check. He then informed me how President Reagan and Mr. Brady were shot in 1981 and how the person who shot them had mental health issues. At that point, the Brady family started their efforts to force background checks, yadda, yadda, yadda. He ended his pitch by showing me a chart of gun violence on a per nation basis, with the good ole' USA in first place...or last if you look at it from his perspective. ;)

    Now, I know this kid is an eighth grader and one of my daughter's classmates, so I don't want to be a total ass, but decided to see how he'd react to some questions about his position, with the intent of also forcing him to think about some of his assumptions:

    Miguel: "This is all very interesting. Can I ask a question?"

    Student X: "Sure!"

    Miguel: "So, on your chart, I don't see Switzerland. I know Swiss males are all required to keep military-class weapons in their homes until they are a certain age. But I don't see or hear about much gun violence in Switzerland. Do you know anything about that?"

    Student X: "No, I don't. It may be that they have a background check before they are given a weapon. It may also be that since everyone has a weapon, they are less likely to shoot someone, since they may be worried about getting shot at. It's not like Columbine where a couple of kids killed/injured a larger number because nobody could stop them."

    Miguel: "Huh. Maybe we should all have guns then instead of restricting them?" (I said, smiling...)

    At that moment, and who knows if it will stick or was just a passing moment, he looked like he "got" it. He gave us a nervous smile like, "****. Crazy dude may be right..." so I just shook his hand, told him thanks for his presentation, took his flyer and went on to the next booth.

    After the program, I told Miss Miguel about it. "OMG, he had no idea what was coming, did he?" she laughed. I told her my only regret was not pointing to Miguel Jr. and asking, "He shoots a rifle, what do you think of that?" but again, it was about encouraging a young man to think about the issue he chose, not bringing the house down on him.

    Hopefully he will think about the issue with my feedback in mind going forward.
     

    SirRealism

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Nov 17, 2008
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    At first, I thought you dressed him down in front of the entire class. ha ha.

    Let's hope the young man will continue to think about the issue. Good job.
     

    J_Wales

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    Feb 18, 2011
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    Excellent job Sir!
    Well done!
    Outstanding!
    Bravo!

    You took a teachable moment, made something of it, and actually got somebody to think! It may well be something few of his teachers have done for him. You may have well saved a lamb from slaughter.

    Keep up the good work Sir!
     

    Indy_Guy_77

    Grandmaster
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    16   0   0
    Apr 30, 2008
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    Thing is, though, that cultural differences play a much larger factor than does the fact that there are rifles (fully automatic, some of them) in almost every home.

    Also, ammunition is STRICTLY controlled and routinely inventoried. Not like the rifles are locked and loaded.

    Another country with very strict gun control and quite low violent crime rate: Japan.

    Again - cultural. It is indeed true that some societies are just "nicer" than others.

    -J-
     

    rich8483

    Expert
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    0   0   0
    Sep 30, 2009
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    Crown Point - Lake County
    Thing is, though, that cultural differences play a much larger factor than does the fact that there are rifles (fully automatic, some of them) in almost every home.

    Also, ammunition is STRICTLY controlled and routinely inventoried. Not like the rifles are locked and loaded.

    Another country with very strict gun control and quite low violent crime rate: Japan.

    Again - cultural. It is indeed true that some societies are just "nicer" than others.

    -J-
    i will agree that there is a lot more to it than just whether or not a country has strict or not so strict gun control laws.

    cultural differences like you mentioned. with our melting pot, we have a unique culture not just compared to other countries, but from neighborhood to neighborhood within our country

    our prison system which is punishment for sure with some of the longest stays and highest imprisonment rates, but i think it lacks true rehabilitation/training for re entering society.

    my personal beef, is media or what have you playing with the numbers. the numbers are real. but the way they are presented is deceptive. you will often hear. other countries have less static murders without addressing the fact that they are simply a smaller country instead of using a per capita figure. or less "gun" violence without addressing that violence can come in all kinds of forms.

    if you could only ask him one question, i think you did well. but he will have to do a lot more of his own thinking from now on. which is admittingly the point.

    violence is a problem in all countries but gun control is never the end all answer.
     

    fullmetaljesus

    Probably smoking a cigar.
    Site Supporter
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    6   0   0
    Jan 12, 2012
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    Indy
    audience.gif


    well played sir, well played.
     

    Indy_Guy_77

    Grandmaster
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    16   0   0
    Apr 30, 2008
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    i will agree that there is a lot more to it than just whether or not a country has strict or not so strict gun control laws.

    cultural differences like you mentioned. with our melting pot, we have a unique culture not just compared to other countries, but from neighborhood to neighborhood within our country

    our prison system which is punishment for sure with some of the longest stays and highest imprisonment rates, but i think it lacks true rehabilitation/training for re entering society.

    my personal beef, is media or what have you playing with the numbers. the numbers are real. but the way they are presented is deceptive. you will often hear. other countries have less static murders without addressing the fact that they are simply a smaller country instead of using a per capita figure. or less "gun" violence without addressing that violence can come in all kinds of forms.

    if you could only ask him one question, i think you did well. but he will have to do a lot more of his own thinking from now on. which is admittingly the point.

    violence is a problem in all countries but gun control is never the end all answer.

    Not an easy argument to parse through...

    Have to be sure that you're comparing like terms to like terms...

    Or pare down what you have into a "like term" in order to compare it to a "like term" from somewhere else.

    Like, for instance, "gun crime" in almost all areas of this country include ANY crime of almost any time that is committed while the perpetrator has a gun on them. No matter if it was not used, brandished, threatened, or even known about/visible at the time. To me, that shouldn't be a "gun crime" since the gun wasn't used nor was use threatened or implied.

    Same with the age-labels used on reports. One of the long-standing crime reports used by anti-gunners includes up to the mid-20's age bracket in their "kids" category. Obviously this will severely skew the numbers to show XXXX number of kids killed by gun violence every year.

    And again, the numbers of folks killed via guns don't parse out the suicides by gun, nor self-defense by gun.

    Like you said, the numbers are all there, what you do with them and how you report them is where the arguments are made/won/lost.

    What really gets under people's skin is how relatively free gun-rights states' cities can be amongst the nation's leaders in murder than a highly restrictive state/city. Case in point: Ft. Wayne, IN vs. New York City.

    According to 2010 data, Ft. Wayne had almost 30% greater per capita rate of murder / non negligent manslaughter than did NYC. The means of these numbers weren't clear (and data based on 100k people)

    -J-
     

    Titanium_Frost

    Grandmaster
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    35   0   0
    Feb 6, 2011
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    Southwestern Indiana
    Thing is, though, that cultural differences play a much larger factor than does the fact that there are rifles (fully automatic, some of them) in almost every home.

    Also, ammunition is STRICTLY controlled and routinely inventoried. Not like the rifles are locked and loaded.

    Another country with very strict gun control and quite low violent crime rate: Japan.

    Again - cultural. It is indeed true that some societies are just "nicer" than others.

    -J-

    The difference IMO is cultural diversity within the country. People are much more willing to kill and hurt people that don't look like them. America is a melting pot of cultures and they often have violence between them. Japan and Switzerland AFAIK are not very culturally diverse. :twocents:

    Japan is an isolated island and Switzerland is isolated by mountains as well.
     

    SockMonkey

    Marksman
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    0   0   0
    Feb 8, 2012
    205
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    Bartholomew County
    Like, for instance, "gun crime" in almost all areas of this country include ANY crime of almost any time that is committed while the perpetrator has a gun on them. No matter if it was not used, brandished, threatened, or even known about/visible at the time. To me, that shouldn't be a "gun crime" since the gun wasn't used nor was use threatened or implied.

    I agree with this 100%. If a gun wasn't used or threatened, how can it be "gun crime?" What ever happened to common sense? More and more it seems to be non-existent. I see it at work every day, and I even see it in my own son (much as I try and teach it to him). That's why the whole world is going to implode. Just plain lack of common sense on all issues.
     

    SideArmed

    Master
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    3   0   0
    Apr 22, 2011
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    Very well done. The temptation to pull his arguements apart one incorrect fact at a time must have been tough.

    Using switzerland to get him thinking about it was good. I don't know if I could have resisted debunking the "gun show loophole" arguement though, I probably would have started with that one.
     
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