Good idea for home defense.

[Rookie]

If I had to pull the trigger in my house, I'm gonna mag dump, so the flavor of the first bullet won't matter too much

 

[sloughfoot]

"If I want to scare them, I'll put on an ugly mask."

Clinton A. Smith of Fort Wayne, Indiana

I can hear him saying it too. BTW, do you know he is recovering from knee surgery?

Back to the question, lethal force is lethal force. It doesn't matter to the courts if you are firing "non-lethal" rounds. Plenty of folks have been killed with "non-lethal" rounds.

If you are justified in shooting, then do what you have to do with ammo that will stop the threat.

Why would you even consider it OK to mistakenly shoot someone with a rubber ball?

 

[cosermann]

... most criminals that break in at night to steal your tv are unarmed.

Really? Do you have a source with supporting data?

 

[CSORuger]

i saw a video where a guy uses a shotgun for his home defense weapon and the first shell loaded is rubber shot and the rest are lethal shells. this seems to be a very smart idea.

1. i have family members with keys to my home. they know i have firearms and would not just walk in the door, but it is still something to think about before discharging your gun. knowing that the first round out wont kill means less hesitation.

2. that first shot gives you and bad guy time to decide if the second is necessary.

3. if the second shot is necessary it will help in court to show a less lethal option was used before the lethal round was fired.

just thought i would share this idea with others who may not have seen it.

Thanks, I read a while back to load first round with pepper spray balls and the second with rubber balls, then live ammo.

 

[BlueEagle]

Thanks, I read a while back to load first round with pepper spray balls and the second with rubber balls, then live ammo.

Pepper spray balls? That just sounds ridiculous. If you're shooting, you're shooting to kill. End of discussion.

Speaking of pepper spray....why do people carry "bear spray" when they're in the woods? Because people taste terrible without pepper, that's why.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you are forced to kill in order to save your life, then kill.

I don't want to do that. I don't even use that word.

I may be forced to stop him and if he forces me to stop him I'm not going to give him a boo boo bunny with some dipstick mall ninja load.

1. i have family members with keys to my home. they know i have firearms and would not just walk in the door, but it is still something to think about before discharging your gun.

Then your family members better have a warning system.

Besides Rule #4 always applies so you better know who you are lighting up regardless of the type of ammo.

knowing that the first round out wont kill means less hesitation.

I'm not going to do that, I'm going to stop them. I will not hesitate because: 1) I follow Rule #4, 2) I've already worked all that stuff out with God so I am good to go.

2. that first shot gives you and bad guy time to decide if the second is necessary.

I don't know that. If I shoot I already know that it is not working so I am already ready. If I stop him I don't need to shoot again. It is entirely up to the intruder, not to me.

3. if the second shot is necessary it will help in court to show a less lethal option was used before the lethal round was fired.

It's already Condition Black and expecting more rain. You just shot a fellow human being regardless of the load it is deadly force; you better be in the right.

 

[Sylvain]

Pepper spray balls? That just sounds ridiculous. If you're shooting, you're shooting to kill. End of discussion.

Speaking of pepper spray....why do people carry "bear spray" when they're in the woods? Because people taste terrible without pepper, that's why.

I agree.
I even heard of people using first a blank, then non lethal, then the real deal (00 buck or whatever you use).

I understand that many people dont want to have to shoot at another human being.I dont either, but when you have to shoot you have to shoot to STOP the threat, not to hurt it or scare it.
The bad guy who's going to your house is not thinking about your safety at all.
His/her gun will be loaded 100% with deadly rounds.

I seen those "pepper spray" rounds used by the police in some videos, after shooting a dozen to a suspect they finally had to get closer and tase him because those pepper spray didnt do anything to him.

 

[MrsGungho]

well my thought is, criminals dont break in to houses with gun blazin like in the movies and most criminals that break in at night to steal your tv are unarmed.

I am not going to stop and ask them if they are carrying or not. In my house uninvited be prepared to meet your maker.

 

[Sylvain]

I am not going to stop and ask them if they are carrying or not. In my house uninvited be prepared to meet your maker.

Im always ready to meet my parents, no big deal.

 

[MrsGungho]

Im always ready to meet my parents, no big deal.

 

[eric001]

All the relatives that have keys to my house know very well to loudly knock and announce themselves as they are opening the door. They also know to call ahead if it's an unusual time to be visiting for any reason. And guess what? I know to do the same for them.

Why do they know these things? Because I've made it very clear to them that there are 5 rounds of OOO buck ready to go if someone comes into the house without my permission and foreknowledge.

Let's face it, folks... EVERYBODY knows the classic sound of a shotgun slide being racked. If a person is willing to stay in a house they've unlawfully entered after hearing that very particular sound, then they might as well expect 000 buckshot or something similar.

 

[xdmstu]

Interesting discussion... funny thing is, I was told a similar strategy by a gun store booth operator at a previous Indy1500. It was a couple back and I don't recall the shop -- a small one from in N. IN I think.

Anyway, he recommended "for legal reasons" to have the first two rounds be different types of less lethal - though perhaps increasingly more powerful - and by the third round start the 00 or slugs.

His logic was attempt to scare and/or incapacitate them first. He figured a sane person would be scared enough by the two powerful blasts of a shotgun in relative close range of a home defense situation. If they don't stop, the lethal rounds by the third shot will stop them.

I'm just passing this along.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Just a couple more thoughts about this rubber buckshot stuff:

1. What's in your pistol? Blanks? Sims? What?

2. Have you made a range chart for your house? If not, go plot it.

Take those ranges to your range and shoot some stuff with your rubber buckshot and report back, 10 yards is a long shot inside a house and stuff will be closer (your shotgun will be a rifle inside).

Inside your house that mall ninja stuff is going to work darn near like real buckshot.

Ask some of the veteran cops here at INGO (the ones from the Stone Age, 1960s) about their training with rubber buckshot. Report back what they have to say.

 

[xdmstu]

Let's face it, folks... EVERYBODY knows the classic sound of a shotgun slide being racked...

But, but... I don't have a pump action. Mine is an old Remington 1100 auto-loader. I guess it makes a nice "chunk" when I release the bolt.

 

[Sylvain]

Interesting discussion... funny thing is, I was told a similar strategy by a gun store booth operator at a previous Indy1500. It was a couple back and I don't recall the shop -- a small one from in N. IN I think.

Anyway, he recommended "for legal reasons" to have the first two rounds be different types of less lethal - though perhaps increasingly more powerful - and by the third round start the 00 or slugs.

His logic was attempt to scare and/or incapacitate them first. He figured a sane person would be scared enough by the two powerful blasts of a shotgun in relative close range of a home defense situation. If they don't stop, the lethal rounds by the third shot will stop them.

I'm just passing this along.

The thing is that one or two shots of those non-lethal round might not scare the bad guy, and probably wont stop him, that would only give him time to shoot at you with his lethal rounds.
You should only shoot if they are a deadly threat, and if they are why would you want to give them time to kill you before you can stop them?

I believe that pointing a shotgun at someone and telling them that I will shoot if they move any further is enough to scare someone without the need of non lethal rounds.
This verbal warning would be my "legal reason".

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Jeez Louise, you get the worst of both worlds with the rubber balls.

You might blow your nephews head clean off his shoulders with your "less than lethal" rubber ball mix or you might actually need to really put an end to a situation and not have enough bullet to do the job quickly and definitively.


That's why I always use two rounds of dragon's breath followed by two rounds of bolo, one round of #7 and one mixed 1/2 rock salt, 1/2 Play Dough. My brother in law's cousin said he knows a seal and he swears that's what they used on Bin Laden. The Play Dough messed him up so bad that they had to dispose of the body before the Geneva Convention found out and threw the president in super jail.

 

[lrahm]

Just a couple more thoughts about this rubber buckshot stuff:

1. What's in your pistol? Blanks? Sims? What?

2. Have you made a range chart for your house? If not, go plot it.

Take those ranges to your range and shoot some stuff with your rubber buckshot and report back, 10 yards is a long shot inside a house and stuff will be closer (your shotgun will be a rifle inside).

Inside your house that mall ninja stuff is going to work darn near like real buckshot.

Ask some of the veteran cops here at INGO (the ones from the Stone Age, 1960s) about their training with rubber buckshot. Report back what they have to say.

I almost took that personally but then I saw the "60's" and thought that I'm not that old. Seattle riots a couples of years ago there was a person killed by a "rubber" shell. I would almost have to say that using a rubber round at that range would or could be called "deadly force" Someone wish to comment. I would not be inclined to try scare tactics. If I feared for my own safety, I would have to defend myself and family.

 

[sloughfoot]

This has not been brought up, but those who have actually been trained in the use of rubber ball 12 gauge ammo are trained to fire well in front of the person/group so that the balls will bounce off the pavement into the legs of the recipients. That is the intent, but in the heat of the moment, mistakes are made. It is kind of like shooting pool, you have to visualize the angles. That is when people are seriously injured or killed by the "non-lethal" ammo.

They are not to be fired directly into the torso of the recipient.

I hope I have not given away any secrets that can be used by the untrained.

Whatever.....

 

[Sylvain]

This has not been brought up, but those who have actually been trained in the use of rubber ball 12 gauge ammo are trained to fire well in front of the person/group so that the balls will bounce off the pavement into the legs of the recipients. That is the intent, but in the heat of the moment, mistakes are made. It is kind of like shooting pool, you have to visualize the angles. That is when people are seriously injured or killed by the "non-lethal" ammo.

They are not to be fired directly into the torso of the recipient.

I hope I have not given away any secrets that can be used by the untrained.

Whatever.....

At least you didnt talk about the secret police handshake ... oops.

 

[lrahm]

This has not been brought up, but those who have actually been trained in the use of rubber ball 12 gauge ammo are trained to fire well in front of the person/group so that the balls will bounce off the pavement into the legs of the recipients. That is the intent, but in the heat of the moment, mistakes are made. It is kind of like shooting pool, you have to visualize the angles. That is when people are seriously injured or killed by the "non-lethal" ammo.

They are not to be fired directly into the torso of the recipient.

I hope I have not given away any secrets that can be used by the untrained.

Whatever.....

I can remember older officers tell us (new officers) that the use to use #4 shot the same way at crowds in the late 60's early 70's.