Ghosts and spirits?

[theweakerbrother]

This post in no way is a condemnation of those who claimed to have had paranormal experiences but I do not believe that these things are possible. I've never had anything like this and I have been obsessed with them since I was about 10 or so. A neighbor of mine moved in behind my parents house and pretty much ever since then, we would read books on cryptozoology, alien encounters, government conspiracies and paranormal activity.

Belief, or lack thereof, does not negate reality nor truth. How can things exist beyond science, logic, reason and what we know as truth? The same answer I give is the same one I apply to metaphysics... our idea of truth may not necessarily be as sharp or focal as we think it is.

If these kinds of things exist, why is evidence so slim or non-existent? Where is the proof?

 

[dwh79]

When I was a kid laying in bed one night I woke up and saw a woman walk by my room that was a stranger in the house. Either was asleep and dreaming that I was awake or a ghost not sure which. I like the thread though. Also really enjoyed the south park spoof of Ghost Hunters. Deffinetly have gotten the creeps many a time but that is my only real experience.

 

[shooter521]

If these kinds of things exist, why is evidence so slim or non-existent? Where is the proof?

Same questions could be applied to issues of religious faith, could they not?

 

[PatriotPride]

This post in no way is a condemnation of those who claimed to have had paranormal experiences but I do not believe that these things are possible. I've never had anything like this and I have been obsessed with them since I was about 10 or so. A neighbor of mine moved in behind my parents house and pretty much ever since then, we would read books on cryptozoology, alien encounters, government conspiracies and paranormal activity.

Belief, or lack thereof, does not negate reality nor truth. How can things exist beyond science, logic, reason and what we know as truth? The same answer I give is the same one I apply to metaphysics... our idea of truth may not necessarily be as sharp or focal as we think it is.

If these kinds of things exist, why is evidence so slim or non-existent? Where is the proof?

One thing to note is that paranormal experiences are recorded in the Bible. One instance is when Saul visited the Witch of Endor, and called back the spirit of Samuel. There are many things that we can't explain, but I do believe that it is angels/demons, and that there IS the possibility of aliens.

 

[jsharmon7]

I think a lot of things that we think of as "paranormal" are just things that humans haven't evolved enough yet to understand. Just a few hundred years ago there were probably lots of things that people thought were "magic" and we now completely understand and can explain. I have no idea whether there are ghosts or aliens or demons or anything of the sort, but there could be things that we don't yet understand that we label as such in order to make sense of it. For me it comes down to the fact that we don't know everything and I can't rule anything in or out.

Besides, what kind of evidence could be obtained of a "ghost" that wouldn't immediately be ripped to shreds because people assume it's doctored in some way or fake. If I had a video of a ghost walking through a wall that I showed to you, would you believe it on its face or would you think I faked it?

 

[96firephoenix]

so on senior retreat, we went to a retreat center in Indy for a few days... a buddy of mine complained about noises in teh middle of the night and the crucifix swaying on the wall... well idk about the noises, but there were marks on teh wall where the crucifix had swung full circle many times.

also, my high school was/is haunted by the spirit of a former cafeteria worker who was only happy at the school and killed herself... supposedly. I don't know about any of that, but I do know that when I was working as stage manager for the theatre, I would hear footsteps from the other loft area, and there was NO ONE else up there but me. no couples making out on the couch up there (there has been before, lol) and no footprints in the dust, but distinct noises of someone walking about.

 

[dwh79]

Where did you go to school at?

 

[paddling_man]

From an earlier post I made in the "Ghosts" thread back in 08.

I owned a business with a couple of other folks in the late eighties. It was a commercial communications equipment repair facility. All of our contract work was via shipping - no customers on site. We rented a two level building (walk out on both levels) that had in its previous life been a bar. A very rough bar in an area known as Dixie Lee Junction. It was at the junction of two highways that eventually were overshadowed by parallel routes of Interstate 40 and 75 just 3/4 mile over a hill.

Locals had described the previous bar environment: Billiard tables, kitchen, bar and bathrooms upstairs. Downstairs had a little booth with windows at the entrance. It was rumored to be the spot with the hookers/strippers and illegal gambling.

I know of at least 2 patrons who lost their lives in there.

It was a... busy place, even when you were the sole occupant. Typically all noises would occur when you were alone but not always. We may have ignored the noises when the building was occupied by several of us, since one would assume nothing was amiss.

* Alone in the building, upstairs or downstairs, you could hear the murmured noise of a conversational bar on the opposite level.
* When upstairs alone, you could frequently hear things crashing around downstairs. Investigation would yield everything in its place.

* Downstairs, in a group of three or four of us, we could frequently hear the sound of footsteps as someone would walk across the upper floor - all while it was empty with a locked front door.
* As above, except more infrequently one could hear the bounce of a billiard ball on the floor and the sound of it rolling along the wood until it "hit" the wall. (No balls or table there when we were occupants.)

These instances weren't observed by just one or two people. At least 20 - 30 people heard this stuff during the 5 years we were there. Many, many folks insisted they WOULD NOT be in the building alone, they were so freaked out by the "bar noises."

One of my partners sometimes brought his dog into work. We all loved that dog. He should have been named "mooch" because of his rotating begging at lunchtime. Instead, he was bestowed with the much more inventive title: Dog. My coworker had to be on the road to visit a client early. He arrived before the rest of us and left Dog in his office. Now Dog was a mellow dog. Slow and very easy going. Dog leapt through a glass window and was waiting outside when we arrived. He was very hesitant about coming inside again. Something made him want to get out badly. I would have thought nothing of it if not for the other stuff.

One of the best stories was from one of my employees. He was in charge of the contract logistical scheduling. He was "old." 55? Now that I'm just months shy of 40, he doesn't seem so old anymore. We had offices side by side. He was always the early riser and was the first one into the building, leaving it locked up until the other staff of 20-25 arrived.

He heard my office door open, then shut. The sound of my footsteps. He heard the casters of my chair move around as I settled down at my desk. Thinking it was odd that I hadn't said Hello, he came over for a morning cup of coffee.

Opening the door to my office, it was dark and empty. The building was still locked. He let himself out of the building, locked back up and waited in his car for others to arrive.

When we first occupied the building, there were many early evenings I spent "clearing" the building with a Beretta, so sure was I that there were intruders inside. I eventually knew to expect the noises and stopped looking. Even 'til the end, it made every hair on my body stand up.

The building is gone now. It has been replaced by a convenient store. If I ever happen to see one of my old partners or coworkers, the conversation always returns to how "busy" that building was...

I don't "believe in ghosts." I do believe there may be some residual... I don't know, stuff. Residuals that mimic either repetitive actions from the near past or emotionally charged events. Call it leftover electromagnetics or an abundance of pheromones. Heck, I don't know. Something happens that is imminently explainable by science. Maybe science we don't understand yet.

My wife and I have been married for 14 years. Twice, when relocating to new jobs/cities, we've been looking at houses that significantly bothered me. Both of them were empty lots when we looked for them a year or two after settling in to the city. One burned, I'm not sure about the other. One of the two, I found the master bedroom really gave me the willies. Every hair on end, difficult to breath. Almost an anxiety attack to get out.

My wife found out from a coworker that the house with the bedroom I found so weird, was a crime scene a couple of months before. The divorced Mom lived there with a young daughter. Apparently, she called the police on some loud late teens / early twenties kids down the street. Three of them later broke in and raped her in that bedroom. She was alive and doing well in another city, but something about that bedroom (with no knowledge of the event) freaked me out badly. No ghost but residual?

Heck, I don't know. If you tell me you SAW a ghost, I would be skeptical since I've no firsthand experience. Tell me you heard some weird stuff, I've got an open mind now.



https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break_room/8539-ghosts.html

 

[jontheturboguy]

So what do you guys want me to tell you about?

Angels, spirits, or bringing things back from a dream?

 

[jsharmon7]

So what do you guys want me to tell you about?

Angels, spirits, or bringing things back from a dream?

All three, but especially bringing things back from a dream. I have lots of dreams about things I don't own and they seem so real that when I wake up and realize I don't have them I'm let down. But, I've NEVER actually acquired something new from a dream. I want to hear about that!

 

[Joe Williams]

I worked security at an apartment building for old folks. Naturally, some of them had died over the years. There was one room we all hated. Walking that floor at night, down the whole hallway, you could feel something watching you. Couldn't go on that floor without a very bad feeling. Not just watching, but malice. Got to a point we simply wouldn't go on that floor at night. The apartment manager tried ragging on me about it, then shut up when I told her why I wouldn't go on that floor at night, and that nothing could make me unless the only resident on it called me with an emergency. She told me not to talk about it, said she was having enough issues with residents complaining about it. There was only one resident on that floor because the others who moved there either demanded another apartment on another floor, or flat moved out fairly quickly.

Just plain freaky.

 

[shooter521]

Evidently, Bradis has an entity of some sort that resides upstairs. I've never heard or seen it, but the manager and senior employees all told me stories when I first started working there. Several years ago, one of my fellow employees came bolting downstairs while we were closing up, claiming to have felt or seen something. He was visibly terrified by the experience, and quit the shop within a couple weeks.

I also routinely come into the shop and find inventory moved around and papers piled all over the counter, but that's pretty much par for the course working with Lisa.

 

[theweakerbrother]

Same questions could be applied to issues of religious faith, could they not?

My 2nd paragraph sort of addresses that or was somewhat prepared for questions that are often reflected back towards me for these kinds of issues when others point out faith.

To be fair, I hold the same criticisms of paranormal activity to those of faith issues. Every religious diatribe I give, in person, I offer with the warning that I am a man and prone to error in philosophical discussions. Some see it is unnecessary but I see it as the complete opposite.

To make matters more confusing, those engaged in the scholastic world of theology and not on a layman scale also suffer from multiple personalities. Read some of Karl Barth's work (or don't) and his approach is criticism and participation in the third historical quest for Jesus but his conclusion errs on the side of faith. N.T. Wright is another participant of a similar school of thought but with much less scholastic multiple personality disorder of the personhood of Jesus. That is, N.T. Wright admits firstly to being a Christian and that his conclusions don't spring from his faith but are a direct result of them. My own quest for knowledge and truth in the unknown realm of religion and philosophy exist in spite of the gathered evidences of what I have found. A grain of this comes from evident self-evolution and personal experience but much of it comes from history, archeology, and a smattering of tradition.

How do the faithful apply this to the paranormal? Sadly, with much criticism from just about all fields. The religious (and I use this term loosely) are quick to judge those either aggressively by stating that they are participating in 'dark' fields of study. Passively, it is suggested that the time spent studying the paranormal could be better put by studying theology. To the first, I would suggest that knowledge of something never equates agreement nor is having more knowledge 'evil' even if it is in an nonsupporting theory. To the latter, I would suggest that they spent less time in everything... including hobbies, money, meals and whatever nominal pleasure they receive in life. I'd then roll my eyes hard enough to give myself a migraine and tell them specialization is for insects... as the stolen phrase goes.

Likewise, those who embrace the paranormal usually reject mainline theology. Some of the embracing comes from the rejection of the aforementioned because it is seen as the polar opposite. To me, this is like rooting for vanilla ice cream because you don't really care for chocolate.

While I am quick to embrace that theology is a discipline or a social science at a minimum, I do not see the same results that can be applied to the paranormal.

I cannot use archaeology to prove the paranormal. I have seen no recorded evidence, no enlightened personal experience and have to go merely on second hand occurrence. What filter is left in my toolbox of criticism to approach the paranormal?

These are my obvious and truncated responses.

1. It isn't real. Everyone is lying.
2. It isn't real. Some are lying, some are tricked by their own minds.
3. It isn't real in the manner it is being explained. This has been used a lot recently to justify the paranormal to the agnostic or to the atheist who wants to participate in the discussion on the 'believing' side of the paranormal. Ghosts and the paranormal and merely some sort of energy projecting images of past events in a continuous loop. This imprinted memory is a metaphysical burn-in similar to a computer monitor where an image was left too long.
4. It is real. It's not paranormal; our science nor our theories have not caught up with what is occuring.
5. It is real and it is paranormal.

Do I insult the intelligence of those who claim to have had the experience? No. I also realize that what is real to them may not have been real in 'reality.' Their subjective experience in an objective world could have been mis-filtered and filed in the cultural mythos that we have attributed to the paranormal... e.g. things that go bump in the night, ghosts, spirits

As a Christian, what do I believe in?

The Bible seems to suggest that there are two opposing but vastly unequal forces. There is a God who is unmatched in opposition (according to the Bible's one-sided story). His temporal creations are called angels and were sent to interact with man. Is this myth? Is this legend? Is it also true? I can't prove it in the same way that I can prove that Abraham Lincoln exists but I can find room in my believe system that if God exists, so can his ability to create and uncreate messengers for his will. Opposite of God are demons or evil spirits. Are these real? I have no idea. I've never had experiences with them. The Bible mentions them, but that was done in a time when psychology and medicine were not given appropriate names and the surface was either fresh or barely scratched the service. If Jesus is healing the demoniac at the tombs, was he really healing someone of their chemical or psychological imbalances?

Many people claim that Satan is a proper noun entity that exists in opposition to God. I have not been confused of this for several reasons we can discuss in other threads. Please, no rebuttals from anyone of quotes regarding trickery, the greatest thing the devil has done is convincing Christians he does not exist... etc. (read Job in the culture it was written in and you'll find it wasn't in Hebrew nor addressed to the Hebrew God of the OT).

But, as previously mentioned in this thread... I'm one dude, with an opinion, just like everyone else. And you know what they say about opinions.

I'm not arrogant enough (yet) to say that paranormal doesn't exist on any of the above levels. I've sort of (confusingly) explained why the two areas of theology and paranormal activity aren't on the same playing field. I'm a skeptic in most things and paranormal activity is no exception.

That being said, I'll go or do just about anything in a 'haunted' location. I'm more worried about breaking an ankle or finding a drunk bum than anything else.

 

[Hiram2005]

Evidently, Bradis has an entity of some sort that resides upstairs. I've never heard or seen it, but the manager and senior employees all told me stories when I first started working there. Several years ago, one of my fellow employees came bolting downstairs while we were closing up, claiming to have felt or seen something. He was visibly terrified by the experience, and quit the shop within a couple weeks.

I also routinely come into the shop and find inventory moved around and papers piled all over the counter, but that's pretty much par for the course working with Lisa.

NOW, I don't know if I ever want to come back.....

Awww, I've had experiences also and I ain't afraid of no ghost!

 

[Neo46121]

WeakerBrother: After reading your post over and over again, I respect your views and opinion. This is a very touchy subject for people because everyone has their own thoughts and input on the matter.

You let us know how you feel in a detailed and respectful manner. Kudos to you sir

 

[ATM]

...Everyone is lying.

This is what I firmly believed about those 3-D stereograms as well

until...

one day...

I seen one wit my own eyes!



This is probably the same.

(and yes, it was a schooner.)

 

[96firephoenix]

I went to Cardinal Ritter HS on the West side of Indy.

other freaky stuff my brother has been witness to at his college (millikin U. in decatur, IL): hearing furniture moving in the "room" above him on the top floor of a dorm; hearing people running on the upper level track in the gym that has been taken over by storage (impassable to runners); parking his car near the cemetary and getting out, then hearing his car door open and close, with no one nearby; cackling noises from a nearby cemetery (prolly just delinquent locals); seeing headlights from non-existant cars...can't think of any others that he told me about

other ones that I have personally witnessed... just more encounters with the cafeteria lady's ghost... stuff like doors opening and closing on their own, light switches getting flicked by no one... little things like that.

 

[theweakerbrother]

This is what I firmly believed about those 3-D stereograms as well

until...

one day...

I seen one wit my own eyes!



This is probably the same.

(and yes, it was a schooner.)

A scholar is a sailboat!!!!!

 

[darinb]

I used to work at an abandoned mental hospital which is now a military training facility. There was IIRC 50-60 buildings some vacant for years and just left to decay. Another guy and I were one of the first military personnel to get there after the complex was given to the military. We were all alone on the complex one night and basically had nothing better to do than explore so we headed down to the tunnels which we had to map put the next day anyway. We had the creepiset feelings down. It was dark and cold and creepy silent.

After about an hour we came out of the tunnels into a large building that used to be a dormatory and nursery. The entrance to the building basement had a chair sitting in an empty room full of dirt and rock from some past renevation it was just sitting there in this dirty dark and empty room, just an eerie image but that was just the beginning of the crazy stuff in the building. As were walking down a long hallway we heard scrapping on the concrete floor in a large room on the opposite end of the building. We cautiously but quickly had our way into the room and it was still as can be and noone around. The only thing odd was an open window in the room. The next day we inquired about the building and room with an old staff member and they said it was used as a nursery and a baby was thrown out the window in the 1970's by a patient who was supposedly non violent compared to the others.
As we went threw the building there were childrens toys in the hallways and rooms as well as clothes and what junk left to rot all covered with dust. The old curtains sometimes moved even though the windows were not open. It was just so silent due to the solid concrete construction and the only thing you could hear was your breath and heart beat.
The next day we went into building 10 which was a newer constructed building and quite large and although it was not as run down as some there was just something about it that was creepier than the rest. In the basement on the west end there were two rooms one of which had a boiler in it but the boilers construction was odd and creepy. There was a room that was about as big as a single stand up shower attached to the bolier. It had a heavy iron door on it and inside this small room was a couple 2x4 size boards on one end fastened like a chair and on the outside of the door was a small glass window. I still have no clue why someone would want to sit in there or why a door needed to be closed or why you would need to see in or out of that little room. The room right next to it was large and empty but about 6 feet up the wall were large nails hammered into the wall and bent like a hook. These could have been used to hang coats but still gave you a weird feeling. I could go on all day about that place. I thought about writting all those stories down but havent got to it yet.I definetly believe there are forces or ghosts,spirits or whatever you choose to call them in this world.

 

[darinb]

Non believer here. Never had any supernatural experiences. I have lived in my house for 15 years and the previous owner passed in the house just a few feet from where I type this. Now my wife on the other hand . I can only go off my experiences but who knows !

Interesting we just found out a couple years ago that the previous owners husband committed suicide in our living room but no issues at all also. Just home sweet home. I do have some paranormal experiences though.