Four Minneapolis officers fired after death of black man

[Tombs]

Really?

What narratives, specifically, are RIP?

Sure, he seems altered and agitated and non-compliant...as far as the video goes...which ends right as he goes to the ground. Are you saying that the video justifies or excuses kneeling on his neck for 8:46 as we have all seen?

1.) Police brutality
2.) "I can't breath"
3.) Hostile intent of LEO

If you think the knee to the back is the reason he was saying he can't breath, then why was he saying that long before he was ever on the ground?
If you think putting him on the ground was wrong and hostile, then why was he demanding it and worming out of the car to lay on the ground?

It's pretty clear the officers were trying to cut some leeway here and demonstrate patience with someone who appears to be ODing on drugs or has a psychological condition.

If they didn't care they would have stuffed him in the car and closed the doors with him freaking out. Instead they tried to be accommodating with him to get him to calm down.

 

[HoughMade]

1.) Police brutality
2.) "I can't breath"
3.) Hostile intent of LEO

If you think the knee to the back is the reason he was saying he can't breath, then why was he saying that long before he was ever on the ground?
If you think putting him on the ground was wrong and hostile, then why was he demanding it and worming out of the car to lay on the ground?

It's pretty clear the officers were trying to cut some leeway here and demonstrate patience with someone who appears to be ODing on drugs or has a psychological condition.

You stopped at "putting him on the ground".

So, what happened after that, are you saying that was A-OK, fully justified and no problem whatsoever because of what that video shows?

 

[foszoe]

I thought it was the narratives that claimed he was totally cooperative and the police just killed him out of (racist) spite.

Never heard that narrative.

 

[Tombs]

You stopped at "putting him on the ground".

So, what happened after that, are you saying that was A-OK, fully justified and no problem whatsoever because of what that video shows?

Are you saying they should have ignored his complaints and freakout and locked him in the back of the car screaming and freaking out, rather than letting him lay on the ground and chill out for a bit before trying to get him in the car again?

 

[foszoe]

"letting".

hmm

Are you saying they should have ignored his complaints and freakout and locked him in the back of the car screaming and freaking out, rather than letting him lay on the ground and chill out for a bit before trying to get him in the car again?

 

[Tombs]

"letting".

hmm

You have an agenda rather than trying to get to the bottom of what actually happened. You're looking for things to fit the narrative you have in your head, and anything that doesn't fit in the box gets thrown out.

Doesn't the truth of the situation mean more than your personal agenda?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Never heard that narrative.

Well, obviously you have internet because you're here. So I must assume that you don't have television, radio or any other form of media, and that you've been willfully ignoring all news media on the internet.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

You stopped at "putting him on the ground".

So, what happened after that, are you saying that was A-OK, fully justified and no problem whatsoever because of what that video shows?

What?? It seems you stopped at "putting him on the ground".

Here's what Tombs said after that:

"If you think putting him on the ground was wrong and hostile, then why was he demanding it and worming out of the car to lay on the ground?

It's pretty clear the officers were trying to cut some leeway here and demonstrate patience with someone who appears to be ODing on drugs or has a psychological condition."

Not sure how you missed it but reposted for your perusal.

 

[foszoe]

Out of curiousity, what is my agenda?

You have an agenda rather than trying to get to the bottom of what actually happened. You're looking for things to fit the narrative you have in your head, and anything that doesn't fit in the box gets thrown out.

Doesn't the truth of the situation mean more than your personal agenda?

 

[bmbutch]

If you follow Kash Lee Kelly on book of faces, his change from when I first started listening to him to what he believes now is pretty different. He was somewhat backing of BLM in the beginning, not so much now that he's attended some of the rallies.
I digress, after the police body-cam leakage, he did a FB Live event where his opinion is quite different from his opinion when this first started. Not sure if this will work, but if it does "language warning"

Skip ahead to about the 2.3 minute mark.

https://www.facebook.com/kashlee.kelly/videos/602573903966938

 

[ghitch75]

Floyd and fentanyl killed him not the cops....

 

[Phase2]

[video=youtube;H2VwtPYyx14]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2VwtPYyx14[/video]

 

[jamil]

Really?

What narratives, specifically, are RIP?

Sure, he seems altered and agitated and non-compliant...as far as the video goes...which ends right as he goes to the ground. Are you saying that the video justifies or excuses kneeling on his neck for 8:46 as we have all seen?

It adds some context in a way that it makes it much harder for an honest person to be very confident with a murder conviction. Yes, 8 -1/2 minutes is a long time to have your knee on a guy's neck who isn't a threat. He's cuffed and kinda mostly compliant. But also I think an honest jury seeing the whole thing could easily acquit all 4 if they can convince the jury the official autopsy was legit. If he's acquitted then hell will break loose.

 

[Denny347]

I'm really sorry that this guy died but we don't know the full story and I always thought that if you could tell me you can't breath then how are you talking to me.

Common myth, "speaking = breathing."

One can easily get enough air to force out words but not enough to remain healthy.

Exactly!!!

Is it accurate that some dept's once used the knee on the back of the neck as a tactic to restrain a person in an effort to put cuffs on?
Also amI correct that being cuffed with hands behind the back and being left on the stomach for too long can lead to asphyxiation?

I seem to recall some conversation on this almost 20 years ago but the details are fuzzy

Just lying on your stomach with your hands behind your back are not likely to cause an issue. Add in other factors and yes, it COULD be problematic.

I looked it up. The ductwork in my house appears fine.

Not defending bad police work, but if someone is talking, they can breath just like if someone is coughing, they are not choking in the sense they can't breathe. It is biology.

Not true

Floyd and fentanyl killed him not the cops....

Perhaps, but the officers didn't see the medical emergency in front of them.


So, even I was under the mistaken belief that speaking = breathing. That is 100% wrong. I recently took an instructor course from the Institute for the Prevention of In Custody Deaths and we talked about this. A typical "healthy" breath requires 400-700 mL of air to properly oxygenate the alveoli in the lungs. The phrase, "I can't breath." only requires 150 mL of breath. It is possible to pass enough air to the trachea to talk, but not get it into the lungs for the CO2/O2 exchange. This could be caused by the position of the person and/or compression. The restriction also prevents the CO2 in the blood to be exhausted into the air. Build-up of access CO2 can cause acidosis, erratic behavior, and death. "I can't breath." should be considered a medical emergency and treated accordingly. If they are lying...who cares, treat them as if they are not. Reposition them and call EMS. The prisoner becomes a patient until a medical professional tells you otherwise. Doing so could save their life and also save you from years of litigation.

Breathing difficulty can also stem from heart failure and have nothing to do with respiration. My in-custody death "I can't breath." was likely this.

 

[Tombs]

It adds some context in a way that it makes it much harder for an honest person to be very confident with a murder conviction. Yes, 8 -1/2 minutes is a long time to have your knee on a guy's neck who isn't a threat. He's cuffed and kinda mostly compliant. But also I think an honest jury seeing the whole thing could easily acquit all 4 if they can convince the jury the official autopsy was legit. If he's acquitted then hell will break loose.

Not to mention, considering the cop's prior behavior, what makes anyone think the knee is malicious?

The guy was clearly out of his mind and worming around everywhere. Would they have rather the officer let him crawl into traffic?

Yeah, arm chair quarter backing, I can say he should have called for EMS when he noticed such erratic behavior. But I can also envision this type of behavior isn't that uncommon when a perp knows they're facing serious prison time.

 

[ghitch75]

Perhaps, but the officers didn't see the medical emergency in front of them.


So, even I was under the mistaken belief that speaking = breathing. That is 100% wrong. I recently took an instructor course from the Institute for the Prevention of In Custody Deaths and we talked about this. A typical "healthy" breath requires 400-700 mL of air to properly oxygenate the alveoli in the lungs. The phrase, "I can't breath." only requires 150 mL of breath. It is possible to pass enough air to the trachea to talk, but not get it into the lungs for the CO2/O2 exchange. This could be caused by the position of the person and/or compression. The restriction also prevents the CO2 in the blood to be exhausted into the air. Build-up of access CO2 can cause acidosis, erratic behavior, and death. "I can't breath." should be considered a medical emergency and treated accordingly. If they are lying...who cares, treat them as if they are not. Reposition them and call EMS. The prisoner becomes a patient until a medical professional tells you otherwise. Doing so could save their life and also save you from years of litigation.

Breathing difficulty can also stem from heart failure and have nothing to do with respiration. My in-custody death "I can't breath." was likely this.

he was freaking out because his heart was jumping out of his chest.......his condition was self induced....all the cops knew was he didn't want to go to jail....

 

[Denny347]

he was freaking out because his heart was jumping out of his chest.......his condition was self induced....all the cops knew was he didn't want to go to jail....

Yes...mostly. There was one officer on his neck/upper back, one on his back, and one on his legs. His actions initiated his condition. The officers worsened it and didn't do themselves ANY favors in the process.

 

[jamil]

Common myth, "speaking = breathing."


Exactly!!!




Just lying on your stomach with your hands behind your back are not likely to cause an issue. Add in other factors and yes, it COULD be problematic.



Not true



Perhaps, but the officers didn't see the medical emergency in front of them.


So, even I was under the mistaken belief that speaking = breathing. That is 100% wrong. I recently took an instructor course from the Institute for the Prevention of In Custody Deaths and we talked about this. A typical "healthy" breath requires 400-700 mL of air to properly oxygenate the alveoli in the lungs. The phrase, "I can't breath." only requires 150 mL of breath. It is possible to pass enough air to the trachea to talk, but not get it into the lungs for the CO2/O2 exchange. This could be caused by the position of the person and/or compression. The restriction also prevents the CO2 in the blood to be exhausted into the air. Build-up of access CO2 can cause acidosis, erratic behavior, and death. "I can't breath." should be considered a medical emergency and treated accordingly. If they are lying...who cares, treat them as if they are not. Reposition them and call EMS. The prisoner becomes a patient until a medical professional tells you otherwise. Doing so could save their life and also save you from years of litigation.

Breathing difficulty can also stem from heart failure and have nothing to do with respiration. My in-custody death "I can't breath." was likely this.

Yes. But I would think “I can’t breathe” could possibly take one of two uL more than “I can’t breath”. The long E sound requires ever so slightly more than short E.

 

[jamil]

Not to mention, considering the cop's prior behavior, what makes anyone think the knee is malicious?

The guy was clearly out of his mind and worming around everywhere. Would they have rather the officer let him crawl into traffic?

Yeah, arm chair quarter backing, I can say he should have called for EMS when he noticed such erratic behavior. But I can also envision this type of behavior isn't that uncommon when a perp knows they're facing serious prison time.

What the officer did was wrong, but at this point maybe he’s guilty of negligence, but having seen a fuller context I think it’s very likely that all the officers could be acquitted.

 

[jamil]

he was freaking out because his heart was jumping out of his chest.......his condition was self induced....all the cops knew was he didn't want to go to jail....

It looked to me like he was having an anxiety attack. The cops only made that worse. Murder? I don’t think so. But they did not handle that situation properly. There was no reason to kneel on his neck to control him. And the signs were there to have known what was going on.