For All You AR Haters.

[Andre46996]

A clean wouldn’t hurt | The Firearm Blog

These photos were taken in 2005 by MisterPX of his custom AR-15 after 15,000 rounds of Wolf ammunition. He had lubed it every 1000 rounds but not cleaned it. A thousand rounds later a bolt lug sheared off and two magazines after that a second lug was lost and at that point he decided to terminate the experiment before something disastrous happened.

MisterPX said ...

Those are my pics. I took those around the 15K mark. Broke a bolt lug around 16K, second lug broke after another mag or two, then I terminated my experiment. Interestingly enough, the bolt release broke in that 15-16 range as well.
...
... barrel was Bushy, BCG was M1S, think upper rec. was as well. Lower was a RRA, do not recall who's LPK.
​

There is a discussion about this rifle and others at ARFCOM.

 

[Colt556]

Holy Sludge Batman!!

 

[Andre46996]

I am anal so you could eat out of mine after each range trip, but I like knowing that they are not the finicky firearm all the haters make them out to be.

 

[robbran144]

I don't own an AR but I'd love to find one in 458 socom flavor

 

[j706]

Anyone that thinks are AR is unreliable either doesn't have much time on one,has one put together with junk parts,and or spends way to much time on the internet. Combined I have 25+ years with the AR/M16 including eight years active duty,12 years shooting high power competition and 12 years LE. I have never owned or been issued one that was unreliable. Heck my issued rifle in basic/ait was a old worn out Turbohydro transmission (GM) that was more silver than black. It was loose as all get out. But it worked.

 

[shooter521]

A noted instructor once told me that "AKs are more accurate than people think, and ARs are more reliable than people think." Lots of truth there.

I know MisterPX; he's certainly not afraid to put a hurtin' on his gear to prove a point. He was chucking red dot sights off of buildings and kicking them around gravel parking lots before it was "cool".

Bolt lug failures at the 15-16K round mark are not surprising, regardless of manufacture.

 

[baldmax]

My M-16 in basic was a smooth bore. The DS was suprised I could hit anything with it. It AR family is a great product, more than capable in the right hands.

 

[redneckmedic]

My results mimic this test completely. At least 300 rounds looks just as dirty and not a single hiccup

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Not to shaby for an AR. Next time though he should add some sand, water, and mud and see what happens.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Not to shaby for an AR. Next time though he should add some sand, water, and mud and see what happens.

always gotta be someone doubting

 

[samot]

Not to shaby for an AR. Next time though he should add some sand, water, and mud and see what happens.

Ha, that should help cleaning it

 

[kedie]

My M-16 in basic was a smooth bore. The DS was suprised I could hit anything with it. It AR family is a great product, more than capable in the right hands.

My M-16 in basic looked like it had a polished stainless steel barrel. It was a POS. My M-4 ran like a top.

 

[slow1911s]

Cleaning a gun is really overrated. Proper lubrication is generally overdone, too.

 

[Kuting]

At the EAG course last weekend I ran one of the T&E carbines with well over 10k rounds through it, Pat showed us "Filthy 14" that has over 36k rounds through it... Mind you, they do not clean their weapons, only lube them.

Carbon builds up to a point, but then it falls off. I have done quite a bit of research on AR's over the past 5 years, and 90% of people's reservation about buying and running them is due to Vietnam Era stories being passed around the net and shooting clubs continuing the misinformation and fear of the AR. If they were truly that unreliable the military would have switched to another platform by now.

Ergonomics, availability, aftermarket parts, cost, and many other reasons are all proof that the AR platform is the top MBR in today's civilian shooter/gunfighter market. Ask anyone who says differently for 10 reasons why their chosen rifle is superior and each & every argument can be blasted out of the water. This is nowhere near a convoluted debate as 1911 vs. GLOCK. This figures, pictures, AAR's, and factual data are all out there to back it up.

Here is a handful of the AK over AR excuses I've heard;

Ammo cost - Reload, buy practice/training ammo. With x39's availability being here and there versus the abundance of 5.56x45 or 223 it makes sense to go with what you can find readily and be able to reload for the same price multiple times, where as with a steel cased, berdan primed round you get one shot. Let's also look at the ease of converting an AR to .22LR. Those guys paying $0.25+ a shot out of their AK's are paying much more in the long run to train than you would with a conversion kit or dedicated upper and a brick of .22LR.

The myth of "knockdown power" - Stop watching cheesy action movies. No one gets shot with anything less than a 20mm and flies backward 10 feet. It just doesn't happen. We don't live in a 1 shot 1 kill sniper world. Since getting hit doesn't take the target out of the fight there's no point in putting all your eggs in one basket with a larger, heavier round. Shot placement is key.

The AK is easier to use - It is indeed... If you have no training. If you consider yourself an uneducated peasant or plan on handing a battle rifle to an 8 year old go with the AK. With the proper training an AR is such a simplistic design it's not even funny.

The AR isn't reliable - Refer to the OP

The dreaded hunting argument. "You can't kill a deer with an AR!" - Bullcorn. I know a lot of guys who drop wild hogs with 55g 5.56x45. I reiterate, shot placement is key. We're talking about battle rifles, manslayers. When hunting gets brought into the battle rifle debate I see it as a failed attempt to grasp at anything that would back up your point. If we were talking about who has a better lunch menu, Outback or Texas Roadhouse, and I brought up parking issues about one, would I not look like the turd?

Listen guys, I'm not an AK hater. I own a junk WASR 10, but I like it, and it is more dependable than SOME AR's out there, but now all. For this reason it is a secondary choice over other weapons in my armory like the Hi Point Carbine and 10/22... But when I have the option I'm picking up my AR on the way out the door.

 

[360]

My results mimic this test completely. At least 300 rounds looks just as dirty and not a single hiccup

Weak.

 

[CountryBoy19]

If they were truly that unreliable the military would have switched to another platform by now.

Your assumption is wrong. It is very, very costly for the military to make a switch of that magnitude. The fact that the military hasn't switched over is only a testament to the fact that the AR is acceptable; it in no way implies that it is supreme to others or is "top" as you say below. You can't simply single out one factor and say "that is why". There are many factors that play a part in why the military is still using it, and reliability is NOT one of the and I guarantee it. Cost is likely the main factor.

Ergonomics, availability, aftermarket parts, cost, and many other reasons are all proof that the AR platform is the top MBR in today's civilian shooter/gunfighter market.

"Top," could you define that? Top in what aspect/category/etc? Sure, it is top in parts availability and customization. Tops in a single model/variant in number of production (unless the AK has it surpassed, I'm not sure). Tops in reliability? no way

I'm not saying that the AR is not reliable, because it is if it is properly lubed/maintained; but there are many other weapons that far surpass it's level of reliability with far less maintenance.

Ask anyone who says differently for 10 reasons why their chosen rifle is superior and each & every argument can be blasted out of the water.

Please see the above. The AR is not "tops" in every aspect, and therefore your argument that "each and every argument can be blasted out of the water" is a fallacy. The AR just simply isn't superior in every aspect so there is no way for every argument to be blasted out of the water.

Once again, to reiterate, I am NOT saying the AR isn't reliable. I'm just saying that there are other weapons systems that are more reliable.

ETA, I own more AR-15s than all my other "battle rifles" combined so I'm not biased, just telling it like it is.

BTW, I have had and have seen the nightmares with ARs being extremely finicky, and they were Colt's none-the-less, and they were well maintained/cleaned to boot...

 

[shooter521]

Pat showed us "Filthy 14" that has over 36k rounds through it... Mind you, they do not clean their weapons, only lube them.

Per Pat, "Filthy 14" developed some reliability problems and had a "quick clean" (its first!) at the 26,460 round mark. It has had about another 10K on it since then, without cleaning.

Otherwise, I generally concur with your comments re: AR vs. AK.

 

[Kuting]

Your assumption is wrong. It is very, very costly for the military to make a switch of that magnitude. The fact that the military hasn't switched over is only a testament to the fact that the AR is acceptable; it in no way implies that it is supreme to others or is "top" as you say below. You can't simply single out one factor and say "that is why". There are many factors that play a part in why the military is still using it, and reliability is NOT one of the and I guarantee it. Cost is likely the main factor.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand the debt/cost analysis of switching to another platform. Being unreliable enough to make troops combat ineffective is something that would weigh heavy on any decision making board.

"Top," could you define that? Top in what aspect/category/etc? Sure, it is top in parts availability and customization. Tops in a single model/variant in number of production (unless the AK has it surpassed, I'm not sure). Tops in reliability? no way

I'm not saying that the AR is not reliable, because it is if it is properly lubed/maintained; but there are many other weapons that far surpass it's level of reliability with far less maintenance.

Not saying the AR tops the reliability charts, I've seen some go down and MINE even went down due to poor decision making during it's journey in coming into this world. But the AR does top the charts when it comes to every other aspect of a fighting rifle. Am I looking for 4500m pinpoint accuracy and a Picatinny rail mounted compact jetpack and a micro-generator to keep my range beers cold? No, but the ability to fall into the "Good" or "Good enough" categories is fairly high when rating the AR. If only there were some sort of definitive point system for rating weapon systems we could all agree on...

Please see the above. The AR is not "tops" in every aspect, and therefore your argument that "each and every argument can be blasted out of the water" is a fallacy. The AR just simply isn't superior in every aspect so there is no way for every argument to be blasted out of the water.

Once again, to reiterate, I am NOT saying the AR isn't reliable. I'm just saying that there are other weapons systems that are more reliable.

ETA, I own more AR-15s than all my other "battle rifles" combined so I'm not biased, just telling it like it is.

BTW, I have had and have seen the nightmares with ARs being extremely finicky, and they were Colt's none-the-less, and they were well maintained/cleaned to boot...

Weapons go down. It's an inevitability whether you're driving an Abraham's, packing a sword, or running a top of the line AR. I wasn't trying to imply any one platform would never crap out, but there are definite pluses in choosing the AR.

Replies in red.

 

[CountryBoy19]

But the AR does top the charts when it comes to every other aspect of a fighting rifle.

I'm still not buying it. There is just no way it can top so many "aspects" when there is such a broad spectrum.

Accuracy: while the AR is good, and match AR's can do very well, there are other fighting rifles that can beat it.

Recoil managment (I just made that term up): there are other platforms that are much better at managing recoil and muzzle flip purely by the design and mechanics of their operation.

Ease of maintenance: there are others that are much easier to maintain. To be honest (this makes me look really bad and careless), I didn't clean or put a spec of lube on my Sig 556 for the first 4k rounds just because I was lazy; it never missed a beat. I doubt an ar could go 4k without lube and cleaning. The AR would be fine with a little lube every now and then, but they just don't run dry when dirty.

"Cleanliness": the DI action of the AR lends to more residue in the action and tends to gum it up quicker, it may still run fine, but it gets dirty and messy pretty quick and may cause other problems.

Picky about ammo: I had a friend give me 2k of ammo because he mistakenly loaded it a bit under-powered and it wouldn't cycle his AR (wouldn't cycle my AR either), but my Sig LOVED that ammo... about 1 round out of every mag would short stroke on the normal gas setting so I ran that ammo on the adverse setting (simple flip of the valve) and never had a problem with it again.

I'm not putting these up here to put the AR down because it is a very brilliant design and a very good platform; it's just not the best rifle for everything. Different rifles shine in different lights, and by no means does the AR shine above all others in most categories.

 

[Kuting]

I'm still not buying it. There is just no way it can top so many "aspects" when there is such a broad spectrum.

Accuracy: while the AR is good, and match AR's can do very well, there are other fighting rifles that can beat it.

Recoil managment (I just made that term up): there are other platforms that are much better at managing recoil and muzzle flip purely by the design and mechanics of their operation.

Ease of maintenance: there are others that are much easier to maintain. To be honest (this makes me look really bad and careless), I didn't clean or put a spec of lube on my Sig 556 for the first 4k rounds just because I was lazy; it never missed a beat. I doubt an ar could go 4k without lube and cleaning. The AR would be fine with a little lube every now and then, but they just don't run dry when dirty.

"Cleanliness": the DI action of the AR lends to more residue in the action and tends to gum it up quicker, it may still run fine, but it gets dirty and messy pretty quick and may cause other problems.

Picky about ammo: I had a friend give me 2k of ammo because he mistakenly loaded it a bit under-powered and it wouldn't cycle his AR (wouldn't cycle my AR either), but my Sig LOVED that ammo... about 1 round out of every mag would short stroke on the normal gas setting so I ran that ammo on the adverse setting (simple flip of the valve) and never had a problem with it again.

I'm not putting these up here to put the AR down because it is a very brilliant design and a very good platform; it's just not the best rifle for everything. Different rifles shine in different lights, and by no means does the AR shine above all others in most categories.

It's all about give and take. Rifles are like anything else out there that we can choose from. Women, trucks, a pair of jeans. Pick something, and there is nothing that will score a 10 in every category, but there are some that are high enough in ALL categories that we can see that as the best in class.

Right tool for the right job, I completely understand you here. If I want to take a few precise shots from a distance, and I know the target needs to be taken in as few shots as possible I'd go away from the AR... But I'm not talking about sniping, kicking in doors, or trying to get on with GSG-5 and storming a plane on the tarmac. I'm talking about fighting.

Let's go back to the charts for a moment, do a couple comparisons, drink a beer, and then kick back and talk this out.

Accuracy - Yes, there are platforms out there that will knock the AR down. let's look at them in relation to fighting. 700 in a long range configuration. We get accuracy, but what do we lose? Manageable weight, length suitable for varying combat conditions, rate of fire, close range applications. Ok, the bolt gun's out. How about an M14/M1A? Larger round means less ammo for the same weight. Cut your combat load in half. Length? Once again we run into the same problem. The M14 is a long rifle. Clearing buildings simply won't be fun.

Ammo weight - "Oh dude! You brought it up!!!" Yes, I did. 5.56 adds up, just like anything else, but it is the smallest family of rounds I'd be willing to use in defense of my, or my loved ones, life(s). We can argue shot placement all we want, but stepping down to a rimfire round brings up a large number of issues. So from my standpoint the ammo weight incurred by carrying an AR is as good as it's going to get.

Recoil management - I've found very little problems managing recoil with the proper stance. We're not talking about a .30-06 round that will kick like a mule. A 5.56 round out of an AR is very, very manageable. With changing out muzzle brakes and your grip it's not unpleasant.

Going back to filth and reliability - You brought up DI. Classically AR's are DI, but there are now options out there that we never thought possible on an AR. LWRCi, SIG, Ruger, H&K, and many other companies make a piston driven AR that will run just just as clean as your Sig556.

Rebuttal Sir? Although 90% of this on either side is opinion learning is learning, right?

Kut