Yeah, we can already carry on a plane if we take the class and have a letter from the Chief stating that we are carrying as part of our duties...flying on business or something like that. This legislation would just eliminate the letter.
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FLEOA urges President Obama to authorize all LEO to carry aboard aircraft.
- Thread starter Dogman
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- airline security
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Joe Williams
Shooter
- Jun 26, 2008
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- 38
This is incorrect.
When I was in a CID unit we too the "flying while armed" class and basically you would inform them at the desk, fill out paperwork, and when you got to the plane or a different location would meet the pilot and any others carrying, however the final authority was the pilot, just ask that secret service guy a couple of years ago who got all bent out of shape because he couldn't carry.
Agreed
Thanks for the heads up
Do any LEO's on this board go through the trouble of getting a letter and all that, or do you just check it with the rest of your baggage? Or do you leave it at home by choice anyway?
Does it actually have to be police business or could you go to the chief and say, "I'm going on vacation for a week and want to carry on the plane, write me a letter"?
AJB
Hey, I'm all for that. We should all be allowed to drive cars with red and blue lights. What makes the police so special that only they can have them? We should all be able to pull other drivers over and write them tickets. We should ALL have the power to deprive each other of our freedom (with due process of course). Police badges for ALL. There should be no difference between LEO's and non-LEO's. As citizens we should all have the same legal authourity. Then the world will finally be in harmony. Now where is that purple lettering when you need it?
ATF Consumer
Shooter
Hey, I'm all for that. We should all be allowed to drive cars with red and blue lights. What makes the police so special that only they can have them? We should all be able to pull other drivers over and write them tickets. We should ALL have the power to deprive each other of our freedom (with due process of course). Police badges for ALL. There should be no difference between LEO's and non-LEO's. As citizens we should all have the same legal authourity. Then the world will finally be in harmony. Now where is that purple lettering when you need it?
I don't know about the car and writing tickets, but as I recall something about Citizen's Arrest...
Each state, with the exception of North Carolina, permits citizen arrests if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police. The application of state laws varies widely with respect to misdemeanors, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party. American citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections held by police officers, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil- and criminal law including but not limited to any infringement of another's rights
Hey, I'm all for that. We should all be allowed to drive cars with red and blue lights. What makes the police so special that only they can have them? We should all be able to pull other drivers over and write them tickets. We should ALL have the power to deprive each other of our freedom (with due process of course). Police badges for ALL. There should be no difference between LEO's and non-LEO's. As citizens we should all have the same legal authourity. Then the world will finally be in harmony. Now where is that purple lettering when you need it?
There you go denny jumping on the LEO is getting beat up train again. Can we refrain from childish tactics please... Nice smoke and mirror argument to toss in when you have nothing valid to bring to the discussion...
Back on topic...
Why should LEO be allowed to do something that is illegal for average joe?! If the World is such a dangerous place that LEO who are either off-duty or out of their jurisdictions have to be afforded special protections should not everyone have the same right to protect themselves?!
There you go denny jumping on the LEO is getting beat up train again. Can we refrain from childish tactics please... Nice smoke and mirror argument to toss in when you have nothing valid to bring to the discussion...
Back on topic...
Why should LEO be allowed to do something that is illegal for average joe?! If the World is such a dangerous place that LEO who are either off-duty or out of their jurisdictions have to be afforded special protections should not everyone have the same right to protect themselves?!
One reason is that not many citizens arrest and take away someones freedom by putting them in jail.
Hey, I'm all for that. We should all be allowed to drive cars with red and blue lights. What makes the police so special that only they can have them? We should all be able to pull other drivers over and write them tickets. We should ALL have the power to deprive each other of our freedom (with due process of course). Police badges for ALL. There should be no difference between LEO's and non-LEO's. As citizens we should all have the same legal authourity. Then the world will finally be in harmony. Now where is that purple lettering when you need it?
Sarcasm aside, Denny, you know as well as I do that the lights are just a way to request right of way on a public road (though for you, they may also represent a portion of the force continuum, I don't know) and at least for me, they're not wonderfully effective at that task; I've said for years that to most people, the lights and siren seem to mean, "pull out in front of me and hit your brakes!" It's not that LEOs are special that you're issued cars with those lights and badges and other tools for the job, it's that they are tools you use to do the job.
You know my thoughts on this and I'd hope you know as well that I do not minimize the work you guys do and in fact, that I hold much respect for those who do the job in accordance with the oath. I would hope you understand that I'm not trivializing your work to say that when I need a shelf fixed, I don't have to call a carpenter; if I have a fire on my stove in the kitchen, I don't HAVE to call the FD, and, much closer to home, if any of our citizens have a cut on their arm, they do not HAVE to call an ambulance. Few of the tools I have on my truck are beyond the ability (though perhaps the knowledge) of the average citizen to use.
Now, that said, yes, you guys put on that uniform and intentionally and with full knowledge of the risks, put yourselves in harm's way for others' benefit. It's not a threat to you that a citizen without a badge wants to protect himself any more than it's a threat to a firefighter when a citizen puts a lid on the pot on fire or sprays a fire extinguisher, or a threat to me when someone bandages their own wound or fixes their own diabetic problem or that of their neighbor; in fact, I could make the case that it removes some of the threat to you and the other officers by letting someone else step into that line of fire.
Last week, I had a "code". We rolled up outside the house to find our patient lying on the ground in the snow, his son doing CPR on him. We did our thing and got him to the hospital. Sadly, he did not survive, but that did not stop me from offering my condolences to the family and my thanks and reassurance to his son. As I shook his hand, I heard his mother tell him, "See? I told you you did the right thing!" I'm happy as I can be that he will take THAT memory away from his father's passing, rather than the nagging question for the rest of his life, "what if? What if I'd done ____ instead?" *I* have the training and experience to deal with that question, and none of the emotional baggage he'll carry. Let him remember that he did a good thing and that he gave his father a fighting chance.
Enforcing the law is your pleasure and if I read correctly, your passion. You are driven not just to do it, but to do it to the best of your ability, every day. You take as much pride in a job well done as I do. The same way my patient last week couldn't have a medic standing there when he hit the ground, not every plane will have a cop on it and not all of those cops will be armed. I would think that when JQ Public is willing to put himself in harm's way to protect the innocent, you'd consider him to be the good citizen he is, rather than considering him to be taking away any special status a LEO has, and that's the whole point. You're the professional and you do a hell of a job. There's room for others to do that job, too, though, even if they're not paid to do it.
That's my view on it, and as I've said so very often, thank you for the job you do. It is appreciated, as are you.
Blessings,
Bill
The point is if it is so dangerous that we have to have off-duty LEO's who are out of their jurisdictions flying armed, why can I not be armed to defend myself?
Carry on Board
One thing you may not have thought about is that LEO are trained to deal with much more than just firing your weapon. We have to train to be able to keep from panicking in stressful situations so we can place our shots accurately if it comes down to using deadly force. The average person does not have any idea how to do this because they are not faced with these situations in everyday life. This can make a huge difference.
Air Marshalls receive extensive training in the area of shot placement so they don't shoot a hole in the plane which could make for a really fast depressurization. Having said that I also realize we have many police officers who are poor marksmen either because they don't train or their department doesn't make an effort to reckognize those who need further training and make sure they get it.
Believe me that I am all for citizens being able to carry weapons because it is a deterrent to the criminals out there and everyone should be able to protect themselves and their family but, To say all citizens should be able to carry on airlines could make a bad situation even worse. The average citizen is not trained in weapons retention,Dealing with a high stress situation etc. My opinion is that anyone in Law Enforcement should have to pass the same test Air Marshalls do before they can carry on planes. Just my thoughts. I am not belittling anyone here. Just my opinion.
One thing you may not have thought about is that LEO are trained to deal with much more than just firing your weapon. We have to train to be able to keep from panicking in stressful situations so we can place our shots accurately if it comes down to using deadly force. The average person does not have any idea how to do this because they are not faced with these situations in everyday life. This can make a huge difference.
Air Marshalls receive extensive training in the area of shot placement so they don't shoot a hole in the plane which could make for a really fast depressurization. Having said that I also realize we have many police officers who are poor marksmen either because they don't train or their department doesn't make an effort to reckognize those who need further training and make sure they get it.
Believe me that I am all for citizens being able to carry weapons because it is a deterrent to the criminals out there and everyone should be able to protect themselves and their family but, To say all citizens should be able to carry on airlines could make a bad situation even worse. The average citizen is not trained in weapons retention,Dealing with a high stress situation etc. My opinion is that anyone in Law Enforcement should have to pass the same test Air Marshalls do before they can carry on planes. Just my thoughts. I am not belittling anyone here. Just my opinion.
Lighten up. My sarcasm was directed at your wording and its broad connotations "Why should LEO's be treated any different than the average Citizen?" and now this "Why should LEO be allowed to do something that is illegal for average joe?" It is illegal for you to speed. It is not for me while in the performance of my duties (actually most traffic laws). I can kick a door in (with a warrant or sometimes without out one), you cannot. I can tow your car, you cannot. I can do many things that allow me to do my job that a non-LEO cannot. I think your wording was too broad since it is quite unrealistic to believe there can be NO differences between LEOs and non-LEOs. There HAS to be some or what would be the use? I do understand where you are coming from in this particular instance in regards to carry on a plane.There you go denny jumping on the LEO is getting beat up train again. Can we refrain from childish tactics please... Nice smoke and mirror argument to toss in when you have nothing valid to bring to the discussion...
Back on topic...
Why should LEO be allowed to do something that is illegal for average joe?! If the World is such a dangerous place that LEO who are either off-duty or out of their jurisdictions have to be afforded special protections should not everyone have the same right to protect themselves?!
With that logic, why not let the Military carry when we are off-duty and on leave?! I am trained in an even broader set of stressful situations than LEO's are.
More and more civilians are seeking out and receiving training threat exceeds what you received at the academy and what I have received in the Military. So why are we still punishing people and saying that they are incompetent to care for their own safety?!
Actually I like that idea. I really don't like the idea that you cannot even carry on many bases stateside. YOU ARE trained warriors but cannot be trusted to be armed on base
Active military ID = LTCHI like people taking the time to get that extra training. Of course it is your mind that will win in a fight, not the gun you are carrying. I would feel comfortable with LEOs and non LEOs that received this training to carry alongside me while flying. Mindset mindset mindset. I don't want a chicken
(LEO or not) next to me when the crap jumps off. If you have the mind/training to run to the gunfire, then LEO or not, you are welcome to join the party with me.JMO, this will not pass.
This would be a good question to put forth to your congressman and see what they say.
Again JMO, LEO's are in a position of trust and many (the powers that be) have the mistaken belief that all cops are highly trained, therefore if the shtf they could/would step in and take care of the problem. I think it's nothing more than a way to have extra security on a plane without having to pay for it. Right or wrong, the belief is that the average person doesn't have the training or would intervene if a problem should arise.
Be safe over there.
Actually I like that idea. I really don't like the idea that you cannot even carry on many bases stateside. YOU ARE trained warriors but cannot be trusted to be armed on base
I like people taking the time to get that extra training. Of course it is your mind that will win in a fight, not the gun you are carrying. I would feel comfortable with LEOs and non LEOs that received this training to carry alongside me while flying. Mindset mindset mindset. I don't want a chicken
There ya go. I don't believe in mandatory (and arbitrary) "training" to exercise natural rights, but I do understand and agree that it's not the training of the person to hold and use the gun but the training of the mind to close whatever mental switch it is that allows us to react to a situation decisively and not eat the gun barrel afterward because we can't deal with what we just did.
I said above that I thanked my patient's son for doing what he did to give what I do a chance to work. I said that *I* have the training and experience to deal with that situation and none of the baggage. I doubt most of you have seen either a student or a new EMT after their first code, especially their first unsuccessful one. Many times, they're traumatized, a la "What do you mean it didn't work?" Sometimes, they just sit wherever they are, their eyes staring vacantly at nothing. Most of them need their hands held a little bit (figuratively speaking) to remind them of the first two laws:
1) People die.
2) Medical folks can't change rule #1.
Note: Rule #2 is a female dog.
This is saving a life, where if you do nothing, you assure death. If you do SOMEthing, you can make a difference. A gunfight is similar, but the aim is not to defeat something as incorporeal as "death" but a real, live enemy who is targeting you, and only one is going to walk away, if any.
I don't support mandatory training to carry a firearm, but I think that if you don't get mindset training and expect to actually, y'know, sleep after an incident, presuming you live through it, you're deluding yourself. I'd imagine a gunfight in an airplane would quickly become a war zone, and Jeremy will be the best one active in this thread to say how much you depend on the guy next to you not to flake out. As such, I would not argue with the airline, a private business, choosing voluntarily and without gov't pressure to mandate proof of training prior to allowing carry on one of their planes, so long as that training was also required of LEOs. It could work just the way FL acknowledges an IN hunter safety course for their CCW permit: We don't care where you get the training, so long as you get it and can prove it.
Thanks, Denny, for clarifying your position.
Blessings,
Bill
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