Flag, Pledge......Profound and utter disrespect

[groovatron]

The words, under God, were added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950s, to differentiate this country from the Soviet Union.

Given the references to Deity in many of the more historical documents leading to, and governance of the Republic, having such a reference shouldn't be entirely disregarded. The Almighty God is in fact, a part of this nation's heritage.

This, despite all those who would otherwise choose to invoke an extreme thought of even banning the Scriptures from each and every government structure and event.

There were plenty of early American patriots that lacked faith in a higher power. Expecting a nonbeliever to just disregard this part of the pledge is not right. It's enougn to make me an unwilling participant. No different than if I was sitting through a Catholic church sermon and refused to take communion.

I, like most religious folks, am very passionate about my beliefs.....or lack there of for that matter.

 

[JBusch8899]

There were plenty of early American patriots that lacked faith in a higher power. Expecting a nonbeliever to just disregard this part of the pledge is not right. It's enougn to make me an unwilling participant. No different than if I was sitting through a Catholic church sermon and refused to take communion.

I, like most religious folks, am very passionate about my beliefs.....or lack there of for that matter.

I absolutely agree that there were any number of early American patriots whom at least privately, advocated and pursued an atheistic belief. A number of patriots were agnostic as well, to include a few surprising names.

How does one balance history and heritage, with those who wish to exercise their right to an entire spectrum of religious freedom? Is it fair that all references to Deity to be abolished in everyday displays of patriotism? I don't have the necessary knowledge or wisdom to remotely speculate upon this pattern of philosophical and legal thought.

I do know that strictly speaking, atheism is a religion of itself, and is a faith one holds of no existence of God. How does that differ from one that is a proponent of the existence of God?

These are difficult questions to answer. I do wish that I had the answers, but perhaps its not the answers that are important. Its the journey to such that truly matters.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Everyone can complain about the meaning and who you are saying it to or about, but whenever I hear it and or the national anthem I do not think about the "government" all I think about is the brave men and women that serve and have served and the ones that gave their life so, I can live and do what I enjoy without being persecuted (for now anyway!) But I am afraid the mass of the public could give a **** less and that really infuriates me. My grandfather served in the Army in Korea and I would ask about the war and he would never talk about it the only stories we got were about the boat ride over there and he showed me pictures of Alcatraz as they left San Fransico, my mother said he never said anything about the war and whenever it was brought up he changed the subject and they never went to 4th of July fireworks (from being shell shocked) my grandmother said once he told her how he saw a bunch of little naked Korean children digging through trash cans for something to eat. I can only imagine some of the horrors he saw. So whenever I see the flag and pledge I remember all the battles I have read about and all the fallen soldiers that gave their lives for my freedom.

The Korean War (1950–53) was a military conflict between the Republic of Korea, supported by the United Nations, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and People's Republic of China (PRC), with air support from the Soviet Union. The war began on 25 June 1950 and an armistice was signed on 27 July 1953. The war was a result of the political division of Korea by agreement of the victorious Allies at the conclusion of the Pacific War. The Korean peninsula had been ruled by Japan prior to the end of the war. In 1945, following the surrender of Japan, American administrators divided the peninsula along the 38th parallel, with United States troops occupying the southern part and Soviet troops occupying the northern part.[22] The failure to hold free elections throughout the Korean Peninsula in 1948 deepened the division between the two sides, and the North established a Communist government. The 38th Parallel increasingly became a political border between the two Koreas. Although reunification negotiations continued in the months preceding the war, tension intensified. Cross-border skirmishes and raids at the 38th Parallel persisted. The situation escalated into open warfare when North Korean forces invaded South Korea on 25 June 1950.[23] It was the first significant armed conflict of the Cold War.[24]

I fail to see within the Wikipedia summary (quoted above) where your freedoms were threatened by the conflict in Korea (which we helped to create). War was never declared by Congress & it was just more NATO entanglement.

 

[TheGuy]

How exactly am I less of an American if I do not stand in the same way you do during the pledge?

Liberty and justice for all - unless, of course, that means standing how one wants while someone else recites a little verse written more than a century ago.

Paying taxes makes one an American. Thats all.

 

[JBusch8899]

How exactly am I less of an American if I do not stand in the same way you do during the pledge?

Liberty and justice for all - unless, of course, that means standing how one wants while someone else recites a little verse written more than a century ago.

Paying taxes makes one an American. Thats all.

And what of the number of Americans that are too poor or disabled to pay a tax? Exactly how are they less an American?

 

[flagtag]

Amen to that!

 

[TheGuy]

And what of the number of Americans that are too poor or disabled to pay a tax? Exactly how are they less an American?

Good point. One need not pay taxes to be an American. Amnesty for all illegals and welfare for all who dont want to work! Wait...thats not right.

 

[rugerfan]

.

 

[flagtag]

I believe that all shcool kids (all levels) should view the Red Skelton video where he explains each word/section of the Pledge - at least twice a year. (beginning of the school year and again after Christmas break).

Red Skelton was one of the best comedians ever, but at some point (usually at the end) during his program, he would get serious and the wise man came through. He was very deep and his words even more profound!

If the kids learned what the Pledge really meant instead of just learning the words by rote, it would give them the real reason and meaning of the Pledge. (Explaining "why" does make a difference!)

 

[flagtag]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TZBTyTWOZCM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TZBTyTWOZCM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/95rF1YUkGr0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/95rF1YUkGr0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

The first link is to the video by Red Skelton, the second is John Wayne. Both explain the Pledge in their own way.

 

[groovatron]

I absolutely agree that there were any number of early American patriots whom at least privately, advocated and pursued an atheistic belief. A number of patriots were agnostic as well, to include a few surprising names.

How does one balance history and heritage, with those who wish to exercise their right to an entire spectrum of religious freedom? Is it fair that all references to Deity to be abolished in everyday displays of patriotism? I don't have the necessary knowledge or wisdom to remotely speculate upon this pattern of philosophical and legal thought.

I have no desire to abolish references to a deity. I have no problem with folks reciting it. It just doesn't represent my personal values........and IMO, that's exactly what freedom and America is all about. I have a choice and I won't be subjected to the firing squad due to my dissent. It's a beautiful thing. I realize that I'm in the minority, and I have accepted that.

I do know that strictly speaking, atheism is a religion of itself, and is a faith one holds of no existence of God. How does that differ from one that is a proponent of the existence of God?

Let me start off by saying, I have not even mentioned the word "atheist" in this thread. I do, however, completely disagree with your interpretation of the words definition. Atheism is NOT a religion, nor does it contain ANY religious beliefs. A simple look at the definitions of these two words will prove my point. While there are several different kinds of "atheism", the general definition is fairly simple. Atheism is simply not believing in a deity. Religious beliefs refer to a faith in the supernatural. They are often involved with the existence and worship of a deity or deities and their involvement in human life. Religious beliefs can also relate to the values and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Also, atheists don't need "faith." Faith is for those who cannot produce proof for something that they believe is true. Faith replaces proof. There is no need for faith if proof exists.

Atheism is the opposite of a religious belief. It is a declaration of an individuals lack of religious beliefs. Unfortunately, many religious persons will mistakingly call atheism a religion. There are many reasons for this, but that's a whole other thread.

These are difficult questions to answer. I do wish that I had the answers, but perhaps its not the answers that are important. Its the journey to such that truly matters.

In the end, I simply cannot get over the "one nation under God" part. It is enough for me to not recite the pledge. I would do the same if it was "one nation under Atheism." Why? Because it's not. How about "one nation under freedom and diversity." That would work for me........because after all, that's what this country is all about.

 

[JBusch8899]

I have no desire to abolish references to a deity. I have no problem with folks reciting it. It just doesn't represent my personal values........and IMO, that's exactly what freedom and America is all about. I have a choice and I won't be subjected to the firing squad due to my dissent. It's a beautiful thing. I realize that I'm in the minority, and I have accepted that.

You should know that I didn't direct or intend any of my previous post as a personal address, save the first paragraph; but as open and better described as a question upon a postulation. However, thank you for the response.

Let me start off by saying, I have not even mentioned the word "atheist" in this thread. I do, however, completely disagree with your interpretation of the words definition. Atheism is NOT a religion, nor does it contain ANY religious beliefs. A simple look at the definitions of these two words will prove my point. While there are several different kinds of "atheism", the general definition is fairly simple. Atheism is simply not believing in a deity. Religious beliefs refer to a faith in the supernatural. They are often involved with the existence and worship of a deity or deities and their involvement in human life. Religious beliefs can also relate to the values and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Also, atheists don't need "faith." Faith is for those who cannot produce proof for something that they believe is true. Faith replaces proof. There is no need for faith if proof exists.

Atheism is the opposite of a religious belief. It is a declaration of an individuals lack of religious beliefs. Unfortunately, many religious persons will mistakingly call atheism a religion. There are many reasons for this, but that's a whole other thread.

I previously should have been more specific in my categorization of atheism as a religion, by stating for the express purpose of the law, specifically the first amendment of the Constitution, that atheism is a religion. A very good article upon this subject is located here: ACA: Online Articles.

In the end, I simply cannot get over the "one nation under God" part. It is enough for me to not recite the pledge. I would do the same if it was "one nation under Atheism." Why? Because it's not. How about "one nation under freedom and diversity." That would work for me........because after all, that's what this country is all about.

As I previously mentioned, one's relationship with our Heavenly Father, is between them and God. My ire occurs when an individual freely accepts or demands the benefits of the Republic, while simultaneously refusing to demonstrate the simplest of gratitude or the minimal respect due unto it. This also often includes the individuals who serve their country in any capacity. I'm not implying that you are included as such, but rather a broad statement of a large segment of our country.

 

[groovatron]

You should know that I didn't direct or intend any of my previous post as a personal address, save the first paragraph; but as open and better described as a question upon a postulation. However, thank you for the response.

Cool....nothing personal taken It was also just my opinion........gotta love commuication via text and smiles.

I previously should have been more specific in my categorization of atheism as a religion, by stating for the express purpose of the law, specifically the first amendment of the Constitution, that atheism is a religion. A very good article upon this subject is located here: ACA: Online Articles.

I enjoyed the article.....thanks for the link............. I interpret this article a bit differently, however. It seems like the ruling was based more on abstaining from favoring the religious, and less on declaring atheism a religion. When I hear folks start stringing the words atheism and religion together, I can't resist but to jump in. It's a common misconception that I hear all too often.

As I previously mentioned, one's relationship with our Heavenly Father, is between them and God. My ire occurs when an individual freely accepts or demands the benefits of the Republic, while simultaneously refusing to demonstrate the simplest of gratitude or the minimal respect due unto it. This also often includes the individuals who serve their country in any capacity. I'm not implying that you are included as such, but rather a broad statement of a large segment of our country.

I understand what you are saying and I share much of the same sentiment. I guess my overall point is that like religious or non-religious beliefs, everyone has their own ways of displaying gratitude and respect. So hopefully, at least 1 out of 10 of the students at the ceremony that lacked pledge participation, had other ways to show their devotion to American freedom and pastime.

Unfortunately, there will always be those who never get it. They live in some far out , freakish world..............But hey, at least they have us to to take care of them

Thanks for starting a good thread.............

 

[downzero]

Looks like some need to read Texas v. Johnson to me.

 

[JBusch8899]

Looks like some need to read Texas v. Johnson to me.

I'm already familiar with Texas v. Johnson.

I understand that a flag burning as a political statement, is interpreted as being guaranteed protected by 1A, and has passed muster as such with a majority of the Supreme Court. I don't dispute such, but also recognize that the dissenting opinions from the court from both Rehnquist and Stevenson of the symbolism that the flag embodies.

My argument is not with the decision, per se. Nor is it with those who choose to make a political statement. I object to the "gimme" attitude of the large populace of individuals, portraying an Oliveristic holding out of the hands, asking or even demanding "more please"; all while burning the flag, and in turn, the nation in effigy. To paraphrase a quote of a character portrayed by Jack Nicholson, "I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way...."

This is primarily the reason why I'm perturbed with the President's action, or more accurately, inaction, when paying the proper respect to the flag. He is the recognized leader of this nation, but cannot be consistently relied upon to demonstrate the proper etiquette upon such. His speech upon national policy and the aforementioned and subsequent actions telegraph a less than compelling statement to his patriotic virtue.

Ingratitude and disrespect seem to mix too often, particularly in this society of perceived entitlement. Too often, false leadership perpetuates and facilitates such beliefs. The time for it to be corrected has long since passed.