Flag, Pledge......Profound and utter disrespect

[JBusch8899]

This particular thing has been gnawing at me the past 5 weeks.

If an individual doesn't wish to show their respect to the Almighty, I can live with their decision. After all, that is between them and God. Enough said upon this subject.

As some will remember, I graduated from Indiana Tech with my BSBA last month. The photo below displays not only the small number of individuals in the spectator seats, but the number of graduates.....all with a their right hand at their sides, or their crotch; during the Pledge of Allegiance.

I was one of the few to not only cover my heart with my right hand, but I uncovered my head (third row, eighth from the center). I noticed a few more had demonstrated similarly, but not many.

The sheer number of people continue to not only annoy, but amaze me. Perhaps I shouldn't be shocked, as our...ahem.....nation's President..... does the same thing, but it still doesn't change my feelings upon the subject. [/rant]

 

[Colt556]

The left wing liberal schools just don't teach the kids to honor the flag and what it means. A lot of them just don't know any better.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

Many people are not educated to respect the flag.


A symbol of our Freedom.

The analogy is, they dont respect freedom; Because many never saw tyranny.
Many live a life which doesnt know truly tyrannical ruling.

Further many have never had to spill they're own blood for the symbol, our flag.

There are many to blame for this, brother. And no one, including myself is guiltless for allowing this perversion of our Nation and heritage to occur.

But unfortunately, if I go out and correct someone, Im likely to end up in jail for some ridiculous crime; And the Gods know they would nail me to the stake.

 

[homeless]

As I write this there is a copy of the Constitution hanging over my head, I love this country and will defend it to what ever end may come. *However I haven't uttered the Pledge of Allegiance since I left the Boy Scouts. I actually think that it is wrong to ask children to take a vow that they may not understand. **


You can say what you want, but reciting the words of a socialist is not patriotism. *I love America and I respect the flag, but the pledge is indoctrination and propaganda. *
The phrase "Indivisible" goes against the idea that the government and this very nation exist at the lesser of the people. *


My oath is to the Constitution, not the country, and not the flag. *It is the ideas that this nation was founded on that must be defended, not what we have become.

 

[Fletch]

As I write this there is a copy of the Constitution hanging over my head, I love this country and will defend it to what ever end may come. *However I haven't uttered the Pledge of Allegiance since I left the Boy Scouts. I actually think that it is wrong to ask children to take a vow that they may not understand. **


You can say what you want, but reciting the words of a socialist is not patriotism. *I love America and I respect the flag, but the pledge is indoctrination and propaganda. *
The phrase "Indivisible" goes against the idea that the government and this very nation exist at the lesser of the people. *


My oath is to the Constitution, not the country, and not the flag. *It is the ideas that this nation was founded on that must be defended, not what we have become.

I agree whole-heartedly. However, I think there is room for respect without participation. Standing, taking off one's hat, and saying a silent prayer for the nation is IMO an upgrade from just sitting and disrespecting.

 

[Indy317]

You are getting all upset over a flag and pledge. Flags, to me, don't represent anything. Countries change constantly, even if their flags don't. Flags are nothing more than identifiers on the field of battle. They tell you who not to shot, or what area you might not want to shoot towards. Pledges are nothing more than conformity of the masses. Demanding that one pledges to any nation doesn't really fit with individual freedom. Saying a pledge to the US flag don't really bother me, but for me its meaning rings hollow. And not, it isn't because Obama is in office and the country is now different. The entire concept of individual freedom first has been gone for a long, long time, well before Obama. This country still leads the way in personal freedom, just not like it was in the past.

What I really can't stand is using "honorable" to address elected politicians. Most have no honor and are only in the position for the betterment of themselves and their family and friends. I also can stand the require to stand when a judge enters the courtroom. There should be an announcement that court in in session so everyone knows to shut-up, but the standing requirement is a joke. Why should any "free" individual have to stand just because another person went to law school, passed the bar exam, and won a popularity contest?

 

[Fletch]

What I really can't stand is using "honorable" to address elected politicians. Most have no honor and are only in the position for the betterment of themselves and their family and friends.

OMG Amen to that one.

I also can stand the require to stand when a judge enters the courtroom. There should be an announcement that court in in session so everyone knows to shut-up, but the standing requirement is a joke. Why should any "free" individual have to stand just because another person went to law school, passed the bar exam, and won a popularity contest?

I see it more as marking the gravity of the situation -- a court room is where it will be decided if and how the violence of the State will be brought against a free individual. It seems to me that this should be an undertaking of the utmost sobriety and reflection.

 

[hornadylnl]

I agree with Homeless and Fletch here.

We Americans have become the Jews who crucified Jesus Christ. We have become so steeped in tradition that we have forgotten what the tradition was for. Like the Jews who didn't recognize God in Jesus, we don't recognize the tyranny that many of us are complicit in bringing in.

Does the land that the Pledge and National Anthem represent still exist? I don't believe so. So what is the point of putting on a show when there is no longer any substance to it? We as Americans are good at talking the talk but the time to walk has long passed.

 

[JBusch8899]

Many people are not educated to respect the flag.......

Respect of the flag is symbolic of the Republic, which includes the principles both stated and implied of it's founding, as well as the principles introduced to it's current constitution.

There are many to blame for this, brother. And no one, including myself is guiltless for allowing this perversion of our Nation and heritage to occur........

I actually think that it is wrong to ask children to take a vow that they may not understand.

Probably true NHV. However, when I instructed my son in reciting such, I also instructed him in it's meaning. A lesson not lost upon him after nearly 16 years of time.

You can say what you want, but reciting the words of a socialist is not patriotism. I love America and I respect the flag, but the pledge is indoctrination and propaganda.

Demanding that one recite hollow words, otherwise phraseology without knowing the actual meaning, is not patriotic, and is by definition, indoctrination.

The phrase "Indivisible" goes against the idea that the government and this very nation exist at the lesser of the people.

Indivisible is defined as the inability to be divided or separated. An entire war was fought over such.

My oath is to the Constitution, not the country, and not the flag. It is the ideas that this nation was founded on that must be defended, not what we have become.

There is an oath, and there is a pledge. There are differences between the two.

The Constitution was not adopted by the Confederation Congress until 1787, and not operational until 1789, a difference of 14 years from it's founding. If the Constitution was scrapped, or otherwise so perverted from it's original intent tomorrow, I doubt that I would be so willing to support the Constitution, despite the oath I took.

Flags are nothing more than identifiers on the field of battle. They tell you who not to shot, or what area you might not want to shoot towards.

I wish the clarity of which you speak still existed. However, the traditional battlefield in which one's banner is highly flown and visible, has since departed.

Such is evident from the friendly fire casualities that continue to occur.

Pledges are nothing more than conformity of the masses. Demanding that one pledges to any nation doesn't really fit with individual freedom. Saying a pledge to the US flag don't really bother me, but for me its meaning rings hollow. And not, it isn't because Obama is in office and the country is now different. The entire concept of individual freedom first has been gone for a long, long time, well before Obama. This country still leads the way in personal freedom, just not like it was in the past.

Conformity of the masses? Possibly. Demanding? Not at all. Though it is my belief that if one expects or demands this country's protection, one should demonstrate the proper respect to one's country.

The President should lead by example. His example has largely demonstrated that he has little respect for patriotism, save to his version of government.

What I really can't stand is using "honorable" to address elected politicians.

Why should any "free" individual have to stand just because another person went to law school, passed the bar exam, and won a popularity contest?

The respect is unto the office, not unto the individual, or status. It is a shame that the time has occurred that one's dishonor unto his position, doesn't require one to leave one's office.

Does the land that the Pledge and National Anthem represent still exist? I don't believe so. So what is the point of putting on a show when there is no longer any substance to it? We as Americans are good at talking the talk but the time to walk has long passed.

It exist within the hearts and minds of those who remember, or otherwise educated of such. Those intrinsic qualities are that purpose, still honorable, and as such, are worthy qualities not intended to be lost upon the masses.

 

[E5RANGER375]

The flag is a symbol of my country not the government. The government which is a joke and more tyrantical than great brittain ever was to the colonies. I shall always respect my flag for what it represents. Its something much bigger than the government could ever be. And I will still stomp someones face in if they disrespect it infront of me. jail or not. I will eat 3 meals a day and watch cable with pride knowing I did the right thing. the right thing sometimes isnt the legal thing according to pansy standards.

 

[irishfan]

In all honesty....most people take their hat off or put their hand over their heart because you are "supposed" to and not because they "want" to.

 

[JBusch8899]

In all honesty....most people take their hat off or put their hand over their heart because you are "supposed" to and not because they "want" to.

I would suspect that those who have ever seriously served their country in one capacity or another, would be one demographic excepted to that supposition.

 

[irishfan]

I would suspect that those who have ever seriously served their country in one capacity or another, would be one demographic excepted to that supposition.

I don't see what serving their country has to do with it. A lot of people are not aware of the history and reasons for the traditions that our country has.

 

[E5RANGER375]

no, i dont believe you have to have served your country to be patriotic and respect the flag. You just need to open your mind and read history. If the true facts of the founding of our nation dont inspire you to respect the flag then nothing will until its too late.

 

[JBusch8899]

I don't see what serving their country has to do with it. A lot of people are not aware of the history and reasons for the traditions that our country has.

"For those who fight to protect it, freedom has a flavor that the protected will never know." -Unknown

Determine your own conclusions from that.

 

[irishfan]

"For those who fight to protect it, freedom has a flavor that the protected will never know." -Unknown

Determine your own conclusions from that.

As before in other threads you make to much out of a lot of people who join the military. I personally know several who joined to do NOTHING more than pay their student loans. One guy in particular makes fun of his service still as a joke.

Many people join for the right reasons and want to do a service and that is a great thing but not everybody as you seem to wish.

 

[JBusch8899]

As before in other threads you make to much out of a lot of people who join the military. I personally know several who joined to do NOTHING more than pay their student loans. One guy in particular makes fun of his service still as a joke.

Many people join for the right reasons and want to do a service and that is a great thing but not everybody as you seem to wish.

I did not imply that the military to be the only method one is capable of serving their country. Please don't misconstrue my words.

For one to serve their country in some capacity, with honor, with intent, .......as opposed to those who do so for a selfish reason; the difference is between those who see life and purpose within the larger scheme, and those who merely see it as only a W.I.I.F.M. mentality.

As such, how can a person ever expect to find genuine purpose and happiness, without thinking beyond oneself?

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

Having been in the Military, I believe one does NOT have to serve to be Patriotic or "More patriotic".

In HighSchool, I knew several great friends, the best one could ask for. Each of them loved they're country with unconditional love for they're American heritage.

Some chose to enlist, other's didnt.

One guy in particular, wanted to be a Marine. His whole life. He wanted to serve. He came from a great family whose had a proud Military tradition.

He was denied because he had gloucoma.

Since he could not served, he would send support to his friends who were in Iraq/A stan.
He's done many thing's, but hardly speaks of them.


I know of them, because of family talk.


Is such a person any less than a man who does serve, hardly.
There are many ways can be patriotic, simply knowing American history is a way, it's foundation and what the Founders desired when they fought for this Nation.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

JBusch, you are correct in your action, to teach your son the meaning of the Pledge. It's the meaning which gives power, inspiration and the desire to want to make this Nation better.

Anyone can recite, but those who know and understand, are IMO the ones who count.

Good job, Brother.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Having been in the Military, I believe one does NOT have to serve to be Patriotic or "More patriotic".

In HighSchool, I knew several great friends, the best one could ask for. Each of them loved they're country with unconditional love for they're American heritage.

Some chose to enlist, other's didnt.

One guy in particular, wanted to be a Marine. His whole life. He wanted to serve. He came from a great family whose had a proud Military tradition.

He was denied because he had gloucoma.

Since he could not served, he would send support to his friends who were in Iraq/A stan.
He's done many thing's, but hardly speaks of them.


I know of them, because of family talk.


Is such a person any less than a man who does serve, hardly.
There are many ways can be patriotic, simply knowing American history is a way, it's foundation and what the Founders desired when they fought for this Nation.

yes there are many other ways to serve, and no less patriotic for sure. I highly respect anyone who supports the constitution of the Unites States, through words and ACTIONS