Finding "No Firearms" signs

[confused89]

So I generally do not carry into a post office, but there is one situation where I have been questioning it. So in Columbus there is a pawn shop with a post office in it. They sell guns at the pawn shop which has no divider between it and the post office which is directly in front of the gun rack. So how does it work in this case?

 

[The Glockantuan]

** The law as posted on Post Office property seems to be selectively worded and the prohibition may not be valid. We're waiting for a test case. Wanna be it?

No thanks haha.

So, you see, I have never seen a No Firearms sign and I never will.
I can't even understand your original question, it's not in my realm of possibilities.
It's kind of like asking your wife to leave the toilet seat up.
You just get a confused look.

Nicely put

 

[ryknoll3]

So I generally do not carry into a post office, but there is one situation where I have been questioning it. So in Columbus there is a pawn shop with a post office in it. They sell guns at the pawn shop which has no divider between it and the post office which is directly in front of the gun rack. So how does it work in this case?

Those aren't federal property, so you are ok.

Similar to a Post Office in a strip mall. You can't enter the parking lot of a real free-standing Post Office carrying a handgun, but if it's in a strip mall, only the unit the Post Office is in is off limits. The rest of the premises and other stores are good to go.

 

[Hammerhead]

So I generally do not carry into a post office, but there is one situation where I have been questioning it. So in Columbus there is a pawn shop with a post office in it. They sell guns at the pawn shop which has no divider between it and the post office which is directly in front of the gun rack. So how does it work in this case?

I OC in that pawn shop and even up to the mail counter. No worries.

 

[finity]

Glockgantuan,

I look at it from a completely different point of view than you do.
Since a sign posted (at a mall let's say) carries NO weight of law in Indiana.
And there is no specified place for a sign to be located (since it's not mentioned in State law).
Then I feel like the most important thing for me to do is NOT see the signs.
I make a concerted effort not to look for them and if I accidentally see a gun on a sign or the word weapon, I avert my eyes so I do not read the content of said sign.
This way when Paul Blart, Mall Cop, asks me if I know about the policy I can honestly say No.
Didn't you see the sign? No.
There is disagreement among people on the board here, but some think (me) as soon as you admit to SEEING and UNDERSTANDING their stupid sign, you step into a gray area of knowing but not acting on your knowledge.
Of course, if the Mall Cop asks me to leave, I will.

So, you see, I have never seen a No Firearms sign and I never will.
I can't even understand your original question, it's not in my realm of possibilities.
It's kind of like asking your wife to leave the toilet seat up.
You just get a confused look.

There's a couple of potential problems with your post.

First, it is possible that, depending on how the sign is worded, the sign COULD carry the force of law pertaining to the trespassing statute.

There have been a few threads on here about it.

Second, It doesn't matter if you see the sign or not. The IC says that you have been "informed" when there is a sign posted at common entrances to the property. There is no requirement to have seen the sign just that the sign be posted where it is "likely to come to the attention of the public".

If the sign IS worded in such a way & posted in a location that meets the intent of the trespassing IC then "not seeing it" won't be a defense against tresapassing.

...some courthouses,...

...A building with a court in it...

It looks like this is a common misconception.

There is nothing in the IC that makes it illegal to carry into a courthouse or a building that contains one. The IC merely states that it's OK for local jurisdictions to make a law or rule that says you can't carry there. If there is no local code or rule then it is legal to carry into a courthouse.

Those aren't federal property, so you are ok.

Similar to a Post Office in a strip mall. You can't enter the parking lot of a real free-standing Post Office carrying a handgun, but if it's in a strip mall, only the unit the Post Office is in is off limits. The rest of the premises and other stores are good to go.

So, where exactly does it say that? I've never seen anything that states that there is a difference between a free standing post office & one in a strip-mall or any other business (like the pawn shop above).

I'm not completely convinced that it's against federal law to carry into a post office. As a matter of fact I think the pawn shop example makes that opinion reasonable.

 

[Hornett]

First, it is possible that, depending on how the sign is worded, the sign COULD carry the force of law pertaining to the trespassing statute.

Not if I don't see it.
And yes, I saw the rest of your post.
I'll take my chances in this case...

I'm not completely convinced that it's against federal law to carry into a post office. As a matter of fact I think the pawn shop example makes that opinion reasonable.

There is a LOT of disagreement as to the extent but it IS a Federally owned building which puts it in that gray area.
I more agree with you on this. There will probably never be a courtroom or Judges chambers in a Post Office.
But, like everyone else here, I don't want to be the test case.
We need to find someone really really dumb... never mind...

 

[youngda9]

Not if I don't see it.

I like your logic. And agree that you were not informed or denied entry(supposedly from a properly worded sign) if you never read it.

 

[finity]

I like your logic. And agree that you were not informed or denied entry(supposedly from a properly worded sign) if you never read it.

I think you need to read the language of the IC.

If you do you'll see that it isn't necessary that you actually see the sign to be charged with (& likely convicted of) trespassing. As a matter of fact the IC specifically says that the minimum requirement to be "denied entry" is the posting of a sign "LIKELY to come to the attention of the public", not that it ACTUALLY came to the attention of the public.

I think if thery've gone to the trouble of charging you the IC is NOT on your side. I'm not saying that you won't get out of it by claiming ignorance but it's not a foregone conclusion, though.

 

[Hornett]

There has never been an arrest in Indiana for not seeing a sign.

Someone owes Kirk some ammo or something.

 

[finity]

There has never been an arrest in Indiana for not seeing a sign.

Someone owes Kirk some ammo or something.

Go ahead & test that theory if you're so sure.

Walk past a prominently displayed "no trespassing" sign & then when they come to arrest you for trespassing claim that you didn't see it. Let us know how that goes.

Yes, that is a dare.

 

[Hornett]

Apples and oranges...
A No Trespassing sign carries the force of law.
A No Guns Allowed sign DOES NOT.
I would never go on someones property posted with a no trespassing sign.
I would also never go into a mall with a No Trespassing sign on the door.
OF course, they would'nt get any business either.
The point is that the mall (as an example) INVITES people to come in, every day.
They expect people to come in.
Lets say that a kid is skateboarding inside the mall, which is against their rules...
The kid would be asked to leave, not arrested.
They invite people in and then ask people to leave that do not follow their rules.

Again, a No Guns Allowed sign carries no force of law in Indiana.
Ohio, yes.
Indiana, No.

 

[finity]

As has been mentioned by at least a couple of lawyers here before there is at least the possibility that the way in which a "no guns" sign is worded could have the same force as a "no trespassing" sign.

Besides your argument as you stated it above wasn't limited to only "no guns" signs but to the posting requirements of a generic sign.

If it was only limited to the simple "no guns" sign then it wouldn't make any difference if you saw it or not since they carry no legal weight.

But if the sign was worded in a way that it specifically denied entry to all people carrying guns then it may mean the same as a "no trespassing" sign & then it wouldn't matter if you saw it or not. You could still get arrested for trespassing.

Just sayin'...

 

[Hammerhead]

You could get arrested, but they probably would ask you to leave first and tell you never to come back, even with the sign worded to not allow entry.

 

[finity]

You could get arrested, but they probably would ask you to leave first and tell you never to come back, even with the sign worded to not allow entry.

I agree they PROBABLY would just ask you to leave but that's not the point.

They also COULD just arrest you & you wouldn't be able to use the "I didn't see the sign" defense.

THAT is the point.

Again, I'm not just talking about the standard "no guns allowed" signs but a more specifically worded sign denying entry based on your possession of a a gun.

Do what you want but just know that it COULD happen.

 

[Hoosier8]

And only the "secured part" of the airport is off limit, not the whole airport.

The Indy airport changed it to the whole airport.

 

[finity]

The Indy airport changed it to the whole airport.

But AFAIK that isn't supported by the IC or any other state or federal law.

They don't have the legal authority to change the gun laws.

AFAIK it would just be a trespassing issue not a firearms violation.

If anyone knows differently that would be good info to see.

 

[BigBlock502]

I saw a 'no firearms' sign at the AMC movie theater a few days ago. I was not going to walk back to my car to put my gun away so I just carried it in anyway. Glad to know I was not breaking the law... just the theaters policy.

 

[MangoTango]

I did read the FAQ, no where inside it did I find anything about where to look for signs...



That, my dear friend, is precisely WHY I started the post. I have read the laws; and figured I was doing my responsibility as an armed citizen to inquire further about something that hasn't been clear to me.

I am aware that it isn't illegal for me to carry at the mall (with my LTCH of course), and that all that they could legally do is ask me to leave the property...However, I was posting this thread to find out if there is a general place I should look whenever I go into a building to see if there are firearms allowed or not allowed by the place. (is there even such a thing, or do you wait until someone comes up to talk to you about it?)

Harp at me all you want for not knowing every detail about all of the Laws...that's why I joined the site, to educate and inform myself as best as I can with the resources this place has to offer. (So far they've been GREAT!)

I thought your question was a good one and despite it having been asked before the answer seems to change often as different legislation goes through. I like the reminder as well. Especially the differences about illegal and private property pferences and what others can do to enforce their own gun policies.

 

[MangoTango]

Glockgantuan,

I look at it from a completely different point of view than you do.
Since a sign posted (at a mall let's say) carries NO weight of law in Indiana.
And there is no specified place for a sign to be located (since it's not mentioned in State law).
Then I feel like the most important thing for me to do is NOT see the signs.
I make a concerted effort not to look for them and if I accidentally see a gun on a sign or the word weapon, I avert my eyes so I do not read the content of said sign.
This way when Paul Blart, Mall Cop, asks me if I know about the policy I can honestly say No.
Didn't you see the sign? No.
There is disagreement among people on the board here, but some think (me) as soon as you admit to SEEING and UNDERSTANDING their stupid sign, you step into a gray area of knowing but not acting on your knowledge.
Of course, if the Mall Cop asks me to leave, I will.

So, you see, I have never seen a No Firearms sign and I never will.
I can't even understand your original question, it's not in my realm of possibilities.
It's kind of like asking your wife to leave the toilet seat up.
You just get a confused look.

The unarmed mall cop who most likely couldn't get in the police academy with limited training who is now going to protect hundreds of patrons from a crazed gunmen. PERFECT

 

[Hornett]

Wait...
I'm not a crazed gunman!