Fighting In Tripoli

[mrjarrell]

Oh, good. A mob of people used to living under a tyrannical dictator will surely make a solid, well-informed decision that will impact them and their children for several generations.

Or they'll muck it up like anyone would under the circumstances.

Or they won't. We managed to do OK after kicking a tyrant out. It took us quite a while to muck it up. They already have a transitional government council in place to lead the way. Whatever they manage to craft will be done by their choice and not at the point of a gun. Freedom's messy.

 

[RockofStrength]

Or they won't. We managed to do OK after kicking a tyrant out. It took us quite a while to muck it up. They already have a transitional government council in place to lead the way. Whatever they manage to craft will be done by their choice and not at the point of a gun. Freedom's messy.

The free American people post-Revolutionary War are hardly comparable to the Libyan rebels in terms of education, unity, or even a desire for true freedom. Freedom is messy and while I can't say I'm unhappy that they have a shot at it, I don't see how they will accomplish anything near what some of the best statesmen of their day managed to do.

My prediction: another dictator rises up and takes over.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Or they won't. We managed to do OK after kicking a tyrant out. It took us quite a while to muck it up. They already have a transitional government council in place to lead the way. Whatever they manage to craft will be done by their choice and not at the point of a gun. Freedom's messy.

Something further to note, rather than go on killing sprees of govt workers (as is done during many civil wars), they have purposefully kept infrastructure intact. Police are still patrolling streets in liberated area, hospitals are still running. etc.

 

[mrjarrell]

The free American people post-Revolutionary War are hardly comparable to the Libyan rebels in terms of education, unity, or even a desire for true freedom. Freedom is messy and while I can't say I'm unhappy that they have a shot at it, I don't see how they will accomplish anything near what some of the best statesmen of their day managed to do.

My prediction: another dictator rises up and takes over.

Do you honestly think that no-one in that country has ever been to university? Their finance minister, (in the transitional council) and the guy who's been running the rebels finances, taught here in the US before returning to Libya to aid them against Ghaddaffi. Many more on the council are also scholars and even former government members who defected. They have lots of experience to draw on and the people of Libya seem to be supporting them. Achmed the garbage man is not going to filling anyone's shoes anytime soon. Add in the fact that the rest of the world is likely to lend them a hand, if needed and there's little to worry about at this point. They're not children over there.

 

[88GT]

Or they won't. We managed to do OK after kicking a tyrant out. It took us quite a while to muck it up. They already have a transitional government council in place to lead the way. Whatever they manage to craft will be done by their choice and not at the point of a gun. Freedom's messy.

Except that our paradigm of what government should be is nothing like theirs. And judging by history, what they demand of their government is the very thing that they rebel against at some time in the future. Sharia law and Islamic tenets are incompatible with true freedom, particularly when entrenched in a theocratic government. Nothing they install as a government will be that much different than what they ousted. At best it will only have the appearance of democracy, but it will still always function with the premise of their social and cultural mores behind it. And none of those allow for anything but despotic control on some level.

In short, if they insist on doing what it looks like they will be doing, they are doomed to failure (by freedom's standards) from the beginning. Which to me, means they will necessarily make a mess of it.

Still, I agree with the part that their future is in their hands. I don't really care what they manage to pull from the ashes so long as it doesn't embroil us in another mess. More power to 'em.

 

[RockofStrength]

Do you honestly think that no-one in that country has ever been to university? Their finance minister, (in the transitional council) and the guy who's been running the rebels finances, taught here in the US before returning to Libya to aid them against Ghaddaffi. Many more on the council are also scholars and even former government members who defected. They have lots of experience to draw on and the people of Libya seem to be supporting them. Achmed the garbage man is not going to filling anyone's shoes anytime soon. Add in the fact that the rest of the world is likely to lend them a hand, if needed and there's little to worry about at this point. They're not children over there.

That said, I remain skeptical. Plenty of fools and dictators were educated at the finest universities and schools. Again, I don't think it's guaranteed that they will fail in providing a free government but my hopes are not high. I hope they do!

 

[Kutnupe14]

The free American people post-Revolutionary War are hardly comparable to the Libyan rebels in terms of education, unity, or even a desire for true freedom. Freedom is messy and while I can't say I'm unhappy that they have a shot at it, I don't see how they will accomplish anything near what some of the best statesmen of their day managed to do.

My prediction: another dictator rises up and takes over.

Not sure who you are saying was more educated, unified, or had the desire.... 'cause that's certainly debatable. And Libyans certainly are far more educated.

 

[mrjarrell]

The rebels have captured Ghaddaffi's compound in Tripoli. No sign of him there. Guess he scampered and didn't stay till the end, as he said he would.

Libya: rebels capture Gaddafi's lair - Telegraph

 

[RockofStrength]

Not sure who you are saying was more educated, unified, or had the desire.... 'cause that's certainly debatable. And Libyans certainly are far more educated.

Educated in what? The same political structuring and economic policies that currently run many "free" nations such as ours into the ground? If so, I shudder to think what their people would put in place while relying on that education.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Educated in what? The same political structuring and economic policies that currently run many "free" nations such as ours into the ground? If so, I shudder to think what their people would put in place while relying on that education.

They'd be lucky to have our political structure. As much as you, I, and everybody else ***** and moan about the current state of our affairs, our nation is still (far and way) the best, and you won't find any other nation, now, or throughout the history of man that has had it better than us Americans currently do.

 

[RockofStrength]

They'd be lucky to have our political structure. As much as you, I, and everybody else ***** and moan about the current state of our affairs, our nation is still (far and way) the best, and you won't find any other nation, now, or throughout the history of man that has had it better than us Americans currently do.

But our current education does not teach much that is positive about the political and economic structures created here in the 1700s. It seems to me that they seem to have a strong affiliation for Mr. Keynes and Mr. Marx instead. That my country rides on the coattails of greater statesmen and those who died to keep their political structure and the freedoms it protects intact is a blessing, and one that those educators wish to destroy. Why would the Libyans adopt a system so despised by their instructors?

 

[Stschil]

They'd be lucky to have our political structure. As much as you, I, and everybody else ***** and moan about the current state of our affairs, our nation is still (far and way) the best, and you won't find any other nation, now, or throughout the history of man that has had it better than us Americans currently do.

I hate to step in and pee in your cornflakes, Kut, why would we wish our current state of affairs on any other nation? Its obvious that America does not have the answers to solve its own issues. To me it's kind of like two guys in a pile, one is neck deep and one only waist deep. Which one is better off when they are both stuck in a pile of fecal matter?
I often think that the "At least we're not as bad as that guy" consensus is the biggest roadblock to getting things changed for the betterment of the People. It leads to complaciency which hampers progress.
We The People should be examining our own situation and taking steps to correct it. Wasting time, energy, equipment and money worrying about some other nations problems is merely a diversion to change the focus from our own.

 

[88GT]

I hate to step in and pee in your cornflakes, Kut, why would we wish our current state of affairs on any other nation? Its obvious that America does not have the answers to solve its own issues. To me it's kind of like two guys in a pile, one is neck deep and one only waist deep. Which one is better off when they are both stuck in a pile of fecal matter?
I often think that the "At least we're not as bad as that guy" consensus is the biggest roadblock to getting things changed for the betterment of the People. It leads to complaciency which hampers progress.
We The People should be examining our own situation and taking steps to correct it. Wasting time, energy, equipment and money worrying about some other nations problems is merely a diversion to change the focus from our own.

Au contraire, kind sir. Let's not mistake an unwillingness to implement the solutions with not knowing what the solutions are.

 

[Stschil]

Au contraire, kind sir. Let's not mistake an unwillingness to implement the solutions with not knowing what the solutions are.

Exactly my point. Instead, focus is shifted elsewhere and "we hope" things will change here all by themselves. While I agree that the wrong solution causes unintended consequences, so too does inaction, often with results that are exponentially worse.
I don't know who coined the phrase, "Don't complain about how someone else is living before ensuring that your own house is in order." but to me, it seems it should be adopted into the American political system and way of life as well.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I hate to step in and pee in your cornflakes, Kut, why would we wish our current state of affairs on any other nation? Its obvious that America does not have the answers to solve its own issues. To me it's kind of like two guys in a pile, one is neck deep and one only waist deep. Which one is better off when they are both stuck in a pile of fecal matter?
I often think that the "At least we're not as bad as that guy" consensus is the biggest roadblock to getting things changed for the betterment of the People. It leads to complaciency which hampers progress.
We The People should be examining our own situation and taking steps to correct it. Wasting time, energy, equipment and money worrying about some other nations problems is merely a diversion to change the focus from our own.

Lol, I think you read ay to much in to my post.

 

[88GT]

Exactly my point. Instead, focus is shifted elsewhere and "we hope" things will change here all by themselves. While I agree that the wrong solution causes unintended consequences, so too does inaction, often with results that are exponentially worse.
I don't know who coined the phrase, "Don't complain about how someone else is living before ensuring that your own house is in order." but to me, it seems it should be adopted into the American political system and way of life as well.

How is that your point?

You said we didn't have the answers. I said we did.

 

[Stschil]

How is that your point?

You said we didn't have the answers. I said we did.

Maybe I did misread. I truthfully do no think that we have the solutions. There have been so many bad decisions that have affected and in some cases enslaved so many people that I don't believe that we can ever solve our issues short of doing away with the system altogether and start over. That, however, carries with it it's own set of monumental problems to be surmounted. Some could survive it, most, sadly could not.

But my point is, we should be trying to find those solutions here at home instead of meddling is some other nations' problems.

 

[ATOMonkey]

You left out the most important part of the parable, "Who knows what is good and what is bad?"

The Farmer parable is about understanding that the true significance of events can't be understood as they are taking place and every event has elements of both good and bad. Once you place a value of either Good or Bad on an event you defeat the meaning of the parable.

Recognizing that there is good and bad in everything is only the first step.

What do we learn from knowing that there is good and bad in everything?

 

[88GT]

Maybe I did misread. I truthfully do no think that we have the solutions. There have been so many bad decisions that have affected and in some cases enslaved so many people that I don't believe that we can ever solve our issues short of doing away with the system altogether and start over. That, however, carries with it it's own set of monumental problems to be surmounted. Some could survive it, most, sadly could not.

But my point is, we should be trying to find those solutions here at home instead of meddling is some other nations' problems.

Ahhh, see, I am perfectly fine with leaving half the population in misery and starting over. Though I agree that the solutions that get us back to where we should be--where the framers intended--come with their own set of problems as well. I'd rather have those than the ones we've got now. At least with those, I would be free to take care of those that affected me directly and nothing more. Now I'm supposed to take care of myself and 3 other comlete strangers. No, thanks.


As to your last point: agreed 100%

 

[mrjarrell]

Well, at least the boots on the ground aren't US boots, yet. Britain has sent in the SAS to aid in the hunt for Ghaddaffi and other missions. They've apparently been there a while.

Libya: SAS leads hunt for Gaddafi - Telegraph