FBI report reflects neccessity of High Capacity Magazines

[sht4brnz]

Below is an FBI report examining the functionality of their duty rounds. The report was the result of an assailant being shot 17 times by the police and still putting up a fight to be handcuffed.

Be aware, there are GRAPHIC IMAGES.

LiveLeak.com - Gruesome autopsy report and technical discussion of .40 vs .223

Sorry if this is a repost as the report is not recent.

 

[kwood]

the video isnt working

 

[Movealongmovealong]

That's because it isn't a video.

It's a zipped file containing a .pdf

Unfortunately, I'm a bit cautious about opening unknown executables on my personal computers, but if some other people chime in that it's ok, I'll give it a read.

 

[cosermann]

I'm guessing it's the report (PDF) linked from here (fits the liveleak description anyway):

FBI Ballistics Brief: Officer Involved Shooting Photos | Public Intelligence

Have seen it before.

 

[NathanJefferson]

Wow.

107 rounds fired from the LEO, hit the guy 17 times, still had to 'fight' him to get into hand cuffs.

This was one guy and he wasn't hopped up on drugs. G'luck with your 7 round mag when 4 guys decide to break in!

 

[Turn Key]

I didn't view the link, but I'll betcha the BG was not shot in the face.

17 rounds to non vitals.

Shoot here:

TK

 

[jayhawk]

I didn't view the link, but I'll betcha the BG was not shot in the face.

I think you might be on to something. The last line of the presentation reads:

"Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively."

 

[avboiler11]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement...BUT

I'm very surprised multiple 180gr bullets did not penetrate and expand better at a distance of 20 feet.

 

[ezdubbin97]

Proves that it is not like the movies like so many anti gunners wanna believe. One shot doesn't always drop someone, even when shot by someone "trained" to shoot, stress under these conditions will affect shot placement and even your ability to hit the target. On the bright side, his tattoo proved to be truthful and foretelling...he did in fact "die by the gun"....

 

[NathanJefferson]

I didn't view the link, but I'll betcha the BG was not shot in the face.

17 rounds to non vitals.

Shoot here:

TK

If you open the doc you can pretty much see every shot he was hit by, xray and photograph...

You are correct that none hit the triangle but most/half were upper center mass.

That said, where do all the experts tell you to shoot? I've not seen or trained with a single one who says to aim for your triangle, more like the opposite.

 

[j706]

In the real world head shots are not as easy as what you think. These guys are not standing still and are often firing back. Not many people in the world can make that shot on demand. You have to hit what you can hit.

 

[srad]

Excuse my ignorance but how the HECK was there only 1" of penetration for pretty much all of the .40 rounds? Is a down jacket the almost equivalent of a type ii vest?

 

[devil07]

From reading the linked FBI AAR pdf, The 1" penetration seems to be the inaccurate info disseminated on the internet (NTOA forum). It specifically stated in the pdf that several of the .40 rounds had expanded and were recovered from the corpse. It also stated a little later that it is "impossible" for a .40 hollow point to expand in only 1" of penetration.

I was actually hoping to see more info on the failure(s) of the .223 duty rounds. The (in)effectiveness of LE duty rounds for the AR15 platform has become a point of interest recently, for me, due to some not-yet substantiated info about Federal's duty ammo not getting the job done locally.

 

[cosermann]

Right, if one reads the entire report, one finds that the 1" of penetration was a misunderstanding. The .40 rounds DID perform as designed (which means adequate penetration), however, the shots were not placed well. Precise shot placement can be very difficult in a dynamic situation; people moving, using cover/concealment, stress, etc. (a good reason for +10 mags, btw).

While shot placement is VERY important, bullet performance is also important and cannot be ignored. They are independent variables, and both have to be satisfied for an effective wound to result. See here for a bit more explanation:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...oading/268166-average_firefight_rounds-4.html

 

[cbhausen]

Nice tat... "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger".