external safety hatred syndrome

[IndyBeerman]

When I carried the 1911 I used to have, it was cocked, locked and safety on, now I carry a Taurus PT-809, when it's on me, the safety is off.

I don't want to mess having to negotiate with a loose grip while pulling it from the holster, there will be enough things happening in the short amount of time that can cause a problem and I don't want an engaged safety to be the difference maker in living and dieing.

 

[Jenel]

Wow really, the 1911 was only designed to be carried that way.

+1!!!!

 

[ATF Consumer]

I love all of the misinformation that is being spewed around here.

I have researched the design of the 1911, as originally created by John M. Browning and nowhere in his documentation does he indicate the 1911 was designed to be in condition 1 as the method of carry.
These recommendations come from military and other training sources.
Besides the safety you use in your head, your holster is the safety...carry that thing in condition 0 and be the most ready you can possibly be for putting the sights on target.
People can say all day long that training makes the difference and with adequate training, they can release the safety as they bring the firearm up to target just as fast as if the safety was off... This has been proved wrong, time and time again.
Condition 0 is the only true "cocked and ready to rock".

 

[JetGirl]

People can say all day long that training makes the difference and with adequate training, they can release the safety as they bring the firearm up to target just as fast as if the safety was off... This has been proved wrong, time and time again.

Being someone who has practiced practiced practiced having the safety snicked off by the time the muzzle clears the holster, I'd be greatly interested in links to the studies that you've mentioned.
Thanks.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Being someone who has practiced practiced practiced having the safety snicked off by the time the muzzle clears the holster, I'd be greatly interested in links to the studies that you've mentioned.
Thanks.

It's been some time since I've been through his documentation...but the better proof would be someone show me where it IS designed to be carried in condition 1.
You will be able to find military training manuals, as well a others...but you won't find it from the actual designer.

People here are claiming it was designed that way...I say PROVE IT!

 

[JetGirl]

It's been some time since I've been through his documentation...but the better proof would be someone show me where it IS designed to be carried in condition 1.
You will be able to find military training manuals, as well a others...but you won't find it from the actual designer.

People here are claiming it was designed that way...I say PROVE IT!

If you re-read my post, I've taken no issue with the claim (or refute) of the design's purpose... what I'm asking for are the links to the studies where it has been "proven time and time again" to be slower getting sights on target when flicking the thumb safety off than not.

 

[ATF Consumer]

If you re-read my post, I've taken no issue with the claim (or refute) of the design's purpose... what I'm asking for are the links to the studies where it has been "proven time and time again" to be slower getting sights on target when flicking the thumb safety off than not.

That is actual experience at the range with several different participants...

 

[Jay]

That is actual experience at the range with several different participants...

How does personal preference evolve into a legitimate "study"? All of the folks I shoot with that carry 1911's do so cocked and locked. Does that make cocked and locked a mandate for everyone? NO. It's personal preference.

 

[ATF Consumer]

How does personal preference evolve into a legitimate "study"? All of the folks I shoot with that carry 1911's do so cocked and locked. Does that make cocked and locked a mandate for everyone? NO. It's personal preference.

The personal preference of the majority doesn't change the facts of my findings.
In my tests, Condition 1 IS slower than Condition 0.

Test it yourself with some friends.

You are very correct about preference...I prefer the faster reaction time.

 

[Armed-N-Ready]

Not again please.

This always turn into a "My way is better and safer than your way" argument between gun slingers. Nothing wrong with either way in my opinion.

 

[Jay]

The personal preference of the majority doesn't change the facts of my findings.
In my tests, Condition 1 IS slower than Condition 0.

Test it yourself with some friends.

You are very correct about preference...I prefer the faster reaction time.

Originally Posted by ATF Consumer
That is actual experience at the range with several different participants...

The "facts of your findings" refer to "several different participants"?

That's outstanding. Suit yerself. Best of luck.

 

[ATF Consumer]

The "facts of your findings" refer to "several different participants"?

That's outstanding. Suit yerself. Best of luck.

Yes, I find it helps to use working data, rather than an unfounded opinion.

 

[gunman41mag]

I've seen it in quite a few threads on here recently, and I'm just curious about it. I'm a relatively new gun owner, but I carry a 1911 cocked and locked with the safety on. For me, that's comfortable, but I want to hear why it makes so many others uncomfortable.

I won't carry a gun, that doesn't have a "F R A M E MOUNTED SAFETY"

 

[IndyBeerman]

I think there needs to be a different approach to some thinking here.

The position of the safety on a 1911 is in a much more natural position to be to flicked off on the draw because of placement and it's extension away from the firearm and not neatly and tucked tightly like most modern designed firearms.

This is easy an thing to do as you as you are reaching to grab with a 1911, not so easy on newer firearms on the grab and draw where it's not extended out.

 

[JetGirl]

That is actual experience at the range with several different participants...

So then...this wasn't an actual study published in any gun mag anywhere...?
As for your "participants" ... were they a cross section of people who train to flick the safety off during the draw mixed in with people who don't train that way?
Were they people who EDC the 1911?
Did the people who took longer to take the safety off also take longer to get on target for a follow up shot (regardless of starting from safety on/safety off beginnings)?
Would the group that does not practice taking the safety off on the draw be willing to practice doing exactly that for a given amount of time and then "re-take" your test?
Did you use a stop watch and publish your findings anywhere? (Including threads in this forum or any other?)
I'm actually very curious about this.

 

[OD*]

The 1911 wasn't designed by John Browning to be carried cocked and locked, it also wasn't designed by John Browning to be carried cocked and unlocked either.

The US Calvary requested a safety of some sort be incorporated into the weapon system so that our mounted troopers would not have to let go of the reins to place the M1910 (M1911 w/the safety) into a safe condition, Browning and Colt engineers came up with the thumb safety. The C&L option was intended to be used only until the trooper was dismounted and could safely place the weapon hammer down on an empty chamber as called for by the War Department.

 

[gunman41mag]

The 1911 wasn't designed by John Browning to be carried cocked and locked, it also wasn't designed by John Browning to be carried cocked and unlocked either.

The US Calvary requested a safety of some sort be incorporated into the weapon system so that our mounted troopers would not have to let go of the reins to place the M1910 (M1911 w/the safety) into a safe condition, Browning and Colt engineers came up with the thumb safety. The C&L option was intended to be used only until the trooper was dismounted and could safely place the weapon hammer down on an empty chamber as called for by the War Department.

I can see the small print

 

[OD*]

I can see the small print

Which means?

 

[roscott]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTalnzcO0xk

 

[Jay]

Born John Dean Cooper, but known to his friends as "Jeff", Cooper was a Marine Lieutenant Colonel who served in both World War II and the Korean War resigning his commission in 1956.[citation needed] He received a bachelor's degree in political science from Stanford University and, in the mid-1960s, a master's degree in history from the University of California, Riverside.
In 1976, Cooper founded the American Pistol Institute (API) in Paulden, Arizona (later the Gunsite Training Center). Cooper began teaching shotgun and rifle classes to law enforcement and military personnel as well as civilians and did on-site training for individuals and groups from around the world. He sold the firm in 1992 but continued living on the Paulden ranch. He was known for his advocacy of large caliber handguns, especially the Colt 1911 and the .45 ACP cartridge.
Cooper died at his home on the afternoon of Monday, September 25, 2006.[2]
[edit] The Modern Technique

Cooper's modern technique defines pragmatic use of the pistol for personal protection. The modern technique emphasizes two-handed shooting using the Weaver stance, replacing the once-prevalent one-handed shooting. The five elements of the modern technique are:

• A large caliber pistol, preferably a semi-auto
• The Weaver stance
• The presentation
• The flash sight picture
• The compressed surprise trigger break[3]

Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:

• Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
• Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
• Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.

Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.


Thanks, but I prefer Mr. Cooper's studies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper


All due respect.....