Explain what went wrong..

[Frank_N_Stein]

I agree!! i think their training is letting them down. they use the radio as the first crutch. in both cases they made dispatch aware that they needed help. and im sure their fellow officers were making haste, getting back on the radio waisted precious seconds. the first video if i was the LEO, AS SOON AS I SAW the man pick up the gun, i would have iced him!!! because he escelated the force continuem

At IMPD we are taught to shoot first then use the radio. It is drilled into our heads during every part of every day of firearms training we go to. Sadly, not all departments practice that same philosophy.

 

[Eddie]

At IMPD we are taught to shoot first then use the radio. It is drilled into our heads during every part of every day of firearms training we go to. Sadly, not all departments practice that same philosophy.

I don't know if this is still the rule, but when I used to work for a city P.D., the nearby campus police had a policy that they had to write a report if they drew their weapon for any reason. It led to a lot of hesitation for them to get their guns out when they needed to.

 

[22lr]

Hind sight is 20/20, there is no way you can look at a shooting that happened and say what happened for real.

YouTube - Police Shooting Man with Gun

Watch this clip, ill bet $50 that anyone who hasnt seen this one before thinks it was a bad shooting. I refuse to comment on police shooting because even on video you cant see everything and have no clue what was "going down."

Officers are human and make mistakes, the bad thing is that their mistakes can get them killed.

 

[E5RANGER375]

At IMPD we are taught to shoot first then use the radio. It is drilled into our heads during every part of every day of firearms training we go to.

I am truely happy to hear that!!! BE SAFE!!

 

[j706]

A perfect and tragic example of poor training on the dead officers department. The officer had in fact been reprimanded for drawing his weapon a few weeks earlier. A complaint was filed and he got in trouble. My understanding was he was not sent for retraining but was disciplined. That IMO left a impression on this young officer. Contrary to some members of INDGO, most people in the LE profession strive to do the right thing. When they are reprimanded it leaves an impression. This officer did not want to be viewed as over reacting again and it is obvious that he was unsure of how to proceed until it was too late.

This video was shown to my academy class and discussed for hours. And then some people wonder why officers seem to be aggressive. One never knows what is waiting on that next call or traffic stop. I wish I could have been there as that officers backup,I wish someone would have been.

 

[cosermann]

. . . Watch this clip, ill bet $50 that anyone who hasnt seen this one before thinks it was a bad shooting.

Looks like maybe he was going for a gun in his back pocket/small of back while putting the other one down, and that the officer to the rear with the better vantage point "denied" him.

Like you say, hard to tell from the camera's vantage point sometimes.

 

[Militarypol21]

Looks like maybe he was going for a gun in his back pocket/small of back while putting the other one down, and that the officer to the rear with the better vantage point "denied" him.

Like you say, hard to tell from the camera's vantage point sometimes.

I remember reading up on that in an earlier post, yes he was going for a gun on his back while attempting to place the other one on the ground. The other officer supprised him with a shot to the back of the head from behind. Criminals are idots!

 

[22lr]

Looks like maybe he was going for a gun in his back pocket/small of back while putting the other one down, and that the officer to the rear with the better vantage point "denied" him.

Like you say, hard to tell from the camera's vantage point sometimes.

Its exactly what happened, but the officer had what, half a second to see that. Kudos to the second officer who fired, and to the first for holding his fire and not creating a crossfire situation. All round this was good police work, just a dumb arse gansta. All I meant by posting it was to illustrate the time frame and how first glance is deceiving at times.

 

[Bendrx]

I would suspect rookie cops get killed for over reacting and veteran cops for under reacting. My first thought is that there isn't any way I could be calm at even a routine traffic stop, but pretty sure they're called routine because that's the "office grind" for them. Even when one does get crazy I would assume the tendency is to let past experiences of the "office grind" to reduce the perceptions of "it's actually going to happen to me". Then, what's clearly a threat on video, is mearly a moment of disbelief for the officer. Just my thoughts in general, I'm not LE, but seems like it could be a factor it the two police shootings. On that second video the officer seemed to display concern with his weapon drawn, again outside looking in, but I don't think I'd ever holster my gun once it was drawn until well after the encounter was done. The escalation of force works both ways. Don't escalate if you don't have to, but know when you have and then don't back down. Again, not LEO so I'm just arm chairing it here.

 

[jedi]

OP thank you for the video post. I need to re-watch it cause the first time the video was choppy (loading on the PC issues) but I do see what occurred and really have no words to comment on it. Someone else posted that the killer was an war vet with mental issues. Does anyone know what happened to him? Caught? Tried in court? Death sentence? His name? History? Etc? Any news links, court cases, etc..

 

[Archaic_Entity]

OP thank you for the video post. I need to re-watch it cause the first time the video was choppy (loading on the PC issues) but I do see what occurred and really have no words to comment on it. Someone else posted that the killer was an war vet with mental issues. Does anyone know what happened to him? Caught? Tried in court? Death sentence? His name? History? Etc? Any news links, court cases, etc..

I hope he was hung by the neck until dead.

Man, I cannot express how much rancor I would have at the department for reprimanding this Deputy on restraint if I were his family.

That video is terrifying, and I hope never to be put in that situation. As a civilian, if I become an LEO, or whatever. However, we must practice preparedness and pray for the best when the worst happens.

To the poster who stated he wished you could get adrenaline going at the range. Just do a few push ups, jumping jacks, jog in place, sit ups. Get your heart rate up and going. That'll be about as close as you can get without training some sort of simunition or live fire exercise.

 

[Archaic_Entity]

Also... has anyone else noticed what seemed to be a second person in truck? At least twice I saw what appeared to be a head moving in the passenger side of the cab.

Like jedi, I would like to know what the results were... and potentially who that second person was and why they did nothing to de-escalate the event. I know for a fact I would be unable to sit there as soon as the rifle was pulled out, I would have done everything in my power to force the suspect to cease all further actions.

Mods feel free to merge my two posts.

 

[Vanguard.45]

Seems like this comes from a lot of traffic stops. . .

and not a lot of regular responses to more volatile situations. Some people, when faced with such a decision, find they are not truly up for the sometimes violent nature of law enforcement. Sadly, such things happen.

What a horrible incident!

Most beat cops who have the proper capacity for violence would be lighting that guy up the second they saw him retrieving a weapon, rather than taking the "Stop, or I'll tell you to stop again" approach.

The sheepdog has to have teeth and not just bark to take down the wolves. Most people in law enforcement I have encountered have a lot of bark, but scoff at those of us among them with even a hint of bite. For them, the gun is a weight on their side they have never seriously considered having to use other than as a symbol of strength. I hope to never have to use my weapon, but wouldn't lose even a moment's sleep lighting up a guy who is obviously threatening my ability to make it home to my wife and kids. If it comes down to him or me, you can trust that I'm going home, and he's going to hell on a fast track.

This incident reminds me of our current policy toward the Iranian nuclear development situation (but that's another story altogether).

Again, a horrible tragedy.

Vanguard.45

 

[45calibre]

it said on live leak that he was caught and sentenced to death two DAYS later.

 

[ultraspec]

That is exactly the way I saw it. The officer made it clear he the suspect get a gun when he radioed into dispatched. At that point you, as an officer, know all hell is about to break loose and it's time to end this. It's kind of hard to see in the video but it looks like the suspect gets the gun out and possibly loads it right there on the seat while the officer is radioing into dispatch "he has a gun". Just seeing him load his weapon (funble with his weapon, whatever) after acting completely irrational is PC to drop him in my eyes.

If this were me in this situation.. when the subject approached me the first time with his hands in his coat/pants, I would have drawn on him telling him to put his hands on his head and to stop(who in their right mind is going to get out of their vehicle during a traffic stop and walk up to the officer with their hands in their pants unless they are wishing to get drawn on). As soon as he made his hands visible and didn't have a weapon I would have holstered my weapon and then pulled out the tazer (whether this officer had one or not is unknown). I would have then tazed him when he approached me the second time.

If the subject happened to have made his way back to his vehicle, I would have taken cover at my vehicle and at least put the front sight on him ordering him to the ground. If the subject then went for a gun I would have been more than ready to take him out. In my eyes it doesn't matter whether the subject had an assult rifle, handgun, or any other type of gun because he wouldn't have had time to pull the trigger once he pointed the gun in my direction.

Then again I am the one watching the video and even though it lasted 3 minutes, I bet in reality this seemed like an instant. I wish there was a way to get an adrinaline rush at the range and then attempt to put some bullets on paper to see how well one can get a decent grouping.

There is a way, its competition shooting or if you dont want to do that then you can run around, do pushups etc on an outdoor range until you get tired and try to shoot with your heart and body pumping.

You still will only be shooting at a stationary target though unless you are moving as well its about as close as you will get.

 

[ultraspec]

A perfect and tragic example of poor training on the dead officers department. The officer had in fact been reprimanded for drawing his weapon a few weeks earlier. A complaint was filed and he got in trouble. My understanding was he was not sent for retraining but was disciplined. That IMO left a impression on this young officer. Contrary to some members of INDGO, most people in the LE profession strive to do the right thing. When they are reprimanded it leaves an impression. This officer did not want to be viewed as over reacting again and it is obvious that he was unsure of how to proceed until it was too late.

This video was shown to my academy class and discussed for hours. And then some people wonder why officers seem to be aggressive. One never knows what is waiting on that next call or traffic stop. I wish I could have been there as that officers backup,I wish someone would have been.

Exactly, not only that but it was said that the Dep. also was recently
a christian convert who may have hesistated because of the recent conversion.


The killer was a vietnam veteran using move and shoot techniques to make it harder for anyone to shoot him.

 

[IndySSD]

Hind sight is 20/20, there is no way you can look at a shooting that happened and say what happened for real.

YouTube - Police Shooting Man with Gun

Watch this clip, ill bet $50 that anyone who hasnt seen this one before thinks it was a bad shooting. I refuse to comment on police shooting because even on video you cant see everything and have no clue what was "going down."

Officers are human and make mistakes, the bad thing is that their mistakes can get them killed.

If you watch the video in the 720p version fullscreened you can clearly see he has a pistol in his right hand as he goes down that he pulled from behind him.

Officer 2 (coming around the corner) most likely saved Officer 1's life in that situation.

 

[HICKMAN]

If you watch the video in the 720p version fullscreened you can clearly see he has a pistol in his right hand as he goes down that he pulled from behind him.

Officer 2 (coming around the corner) most likely saved Officer 1's life in that situation.

yeah, we've talked about that one before.

Lucky for cop 1, cop2 was behind the perp and saw the handgun.

 

[kwatters]

Way too much restraint, and bad marksmanship.

That was hard to watch...wow.

I always assumed if you pulled a gun on a cop, you'd be dead within seconds.

+1 Disturbing to watch indeed.

Motivation to schedule that training I have been putting off...

 

[Fastmover]

Don't mean to bring up an old thread but I saw this video a couple of weeks ago at the Fishers Police Citizens Academy.
The event itself occurred 12 years ago and from what I understand, officer training has changed since then because of this particular event.
I think more people should see this video to understand what sort of situations officers have to potentially deal with while doing their duty.