Entire US Stealth Fighter Fleet Grounded

[Bitter Clinger]

Back before the F-14 first came out, I had the pleasure of being at Grumman for a flight demo against an F4. When they bragged that the F-14 had the capabilities of shooting down 6 enemy aircraft over the horizon, I discretely told one of the Generals there that I would prefer 10 F-16s to each of his F-14 for virtually the same price as one F-14 (in dollar value back then). I told him that he could shoot down six of my team, but I would bankrupt him with numbers. He didn't smile.

We seem to have lost track of the fact that even though we lost too many young men in raids over Germany, we beat them with sheer numbers.

Stealth is great, but give me air superiority by out numbering my opponent.

Low price, simple systems, superior numbers.

F-16's can't take off from and land on aircraft carriers. F-16's did not have the capability to carry the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, the most advanced air-to-air weapons system available. Unless you have designed Naval aircraft, you have no idea of the much higher stress requirements that are built into the airframe. You are comparing apples and oranges, two entirely different animals.

 

[BumpShadow]

What happened to the F-117a's? Yeah sure their "outdated", but they're still more advanced than anything anyone else is flying. Isn't all this a bit of overkill? Having jet's 50 years or so more advanced then even our allies. I mean, I get having as many edges as you can, but come on.

 

[NYFelon]

The F-117A is a sub-sonic ground attack platform. It has no chance at all of ever engaging in, and certainly not winning, an air to air engagement. Modern Radars developed in Eastern Europe are entirely capable of detecting a vehicle with an RCS like the Nighthawk. One was shot down over Yugoslavia by a surface to air missile. You have to remember that the 117 is 30+ year old tech. While we advance, the rest of the world isn't just standing still. Countries whom see the US as potentially hostile are working on means to mitigate our tech advantage. The F22 and F35 represent a dramatic leap forward in anti-detection technology. The RCS's of these two modern aircraft are in fact beyond any currently known means of radar detection.

These vehicles are well worth the investment. Our airfleet is aging, other than the F22, our newest A2A airframe entered service in the 1980s. The B52 has been the workhorse of the strategic bombing wing for more than fifty years. Our previously top tier aircraft are sold on the market almost everywhere. F-15s and 16s serve in air forces around the globe. The f-22 itself represents unchallenged air superiority for the foreseeable future. That alone makes it worth its pricetag.

 

[sentinelrepublic]

The F-117A is a sub-sonic ground attack platform. It has no chance at all of ever engaging in, and certainly not winning, an air to air engagement. Modern Radars developed in Eastern Europe are entirely capable of detecting a vehicle with an RCS like the Nighthawk. One was shot down over Yugoslavia by a surface to air missile. You have to remember that the 117 is 30+ year old tech. While we advance, the rest of the world isn't just standing still. Countries whom see the US as potentially hostile are working on means to mitigate our tech advantage. The F22 and F35 represent a dramatic leap forward in anti-detection technology. The RCS's of these two modern aircraft are in fact beyond any currently known means of radar detection.

These vehicles are well worth the investment. Our airfleet is aging, other than the F22, our newest A2A airframe entered service in the 1980s. The B52 has been the workhorse of the strategic bombing wing for more than fifty years. Our previously top tier aircraft are sold on the market almost everywhere. F-15s and 16s serve in air forces around the globe. The f-22 itself represents unchallenged air superiority for the foreseeable future. That alone makes it worth its pricetag.

THIS

 

[jeremy]

The F-117A is a sub-sonic ground attack platform. It has no chance at all of ever engaging in, and certainly not winning, an air to air engagement. Modern Radars developed in Eastern Europe are entirely capable of detecting a vehicle with an RCS like the Nighthawk. One was shot down over Yugoslavia by a surface to air missile. You have to remember that the 117 is 30+ year old tech. While we advance, the rest of the world isn't just standing still. Countries whom see the US as potentially hostile are working on means to mitigate our tech advantage. The F22 and F35 represent a dramatic leap forward in anti-detection technology. The RCS's of these two modern aircraft are in fact beyond any currently known means of radar detection.

The 117 shot down in Yugo was brought down due to a couple of reasons and none of them with the Yugo's having the tech to "see" it.

Have you ever been duck hunting?!
'Cause that is how that 117 was brought down. Throw enough crap in the air along the 1 or 2 corridors of Ingress to the target at the times the others have been dropping ordinance, I bet you get lucky too...

 

[bingley]

The 117 shot down in Yugo was brought down due to a couple of reasons and none of them with the Yugo's having the tech to "see" it.

Never transport a plane or even your enemy's dog in a Yugo. They break down every two miles, and AAA won't answer your call. That's why I got a GM car. It only breaks down every other week.

Yeah, the Yugo has the tech to see the 117. It's called a big rusty hole in the roof.

Da Bing

 

[Westside]

the f22 is a superior fighter plane even without the stealth.
The f-22 can take out squadrens of enemy planes before the enemy sees them.
The f-22 should've never been scrapped OR HURRIED INTO PRODUCTION...
The f-22 is a planetary air DOMINANCE fighter plane that gives The United States a clear defensive and offensive advantage over the rest of the planet.
The joint strike fighter program is nothing more than liberals in the pentagon.
The fact of the matter is that a small number of F-22's can out perform any fighter jet that will be built in the next 50 years. I am saddened that we allowed liberal washington to violate our ability to protect this country for the next 50 years.
If we had a fleet of 500 F-22's, our republic would be secure for the next 50 years......all arguning comments contrary to what I just stated are wrong, therefore, there is nothing else to say...

sentinel;

As an engineer who works for the department of defense I agree with most of your statement but take exception to the part that I highlighted in bold. The JSF program was original supposed to be one aircraft with only one variant. One for carrier catapult launches and the STOVL version. The problem came when the prototype was built then the scope of the requirements started to creep and the current working prototype wasn't able to keep up with the new requirements. The biggest one currently is the maximum altitude increase for sustained hover.

Also the f22 cann't land or takeoff from a carrier the landing gear struts and mounts are not strong enough to withstand a catapult launch and/or an arrested landing. SO, without forward airfields with smooth 15,000 foot runways you are extremely limited in takeoff and landing sights.

 

[BumpShadow]

The 117 shot down in Yugo was brought down due to a couple of reasons and none of them with the Yugo's having the tech to "see" it.

Have you ever been duck hunting?!
'Cause that is how that 117 was brought down. Throw enough crap in the air along the 1 or 2 corridors of Ingress to the target at the times the others have been dropping ordinance, I bet you get lucky too...

Like I said, even at 30 years old tech, we are way ahead of the curve. And with radar and missile tech where it's at right now, dog fights are a thing of the past. Modern air superiority tactics are you stop the enemy from ever getting airborne. Heck, a non-nuclear ballistic missile would be all that would be needed. Cheaper, 2. Or just a cruise missile.

Yes, we have those. Ballistic missiles are not just nuclear. This is coming from a submarine backround.

 

[NYFelon]

Dani has spoken about how he shot the F-117 down publicly. You're free to believe whatever you like though. The F-117 that was shot down was neither recovered or destroyed. I bet you don't think that the Yugos showed their pals up in Moscow either, right?

 

[gunowner930]

Like I said, even at 30 years old tech, we are way ahead of the curve. And with radar and missile tech where it's at right now, dog fights are a thing of the past. Modern air superiority tactics are you stop the enemy from ever getting airborne. Heck, a non-nuclear ballistic missile would be all that would be needed. Cheaper, 2. Or just a cruise missile.

Yes, we have those. Ballistic missiles are not just nuclear. This is coming from a submarine backround.

That has been said time and time again and has been disproven everytime it was said. Just because our fighters are able to destroy enemy aircraft beyond visual range doesn't mean that within visual range turning fights will never happen.

I think the F-22 and F-35 programs are absolutely necessary if we want to stay ahead of the curve.

Westside could probably elaborate more on the F-35 program but, from an outside perspective it seems as though the government wanted this wonderplane that would be cheap and do everything, and that's leading to some of the delays and development problems.

 

[critter592]

Actually, a lot of the electronic systems are made in China according to Glenn Beck. I cannot verify that.

And yes, the F20 was always the superior aircraft versus the F16.

And the YF-23 that my friends at McDonnel Douglas worked on was superior to the YF-22 but hey, we know how that worked out.

 

[edsinger]

The 117 shot down in Yugo was brought down due to a couple of reasons and none of them with the Yugo's having the tech to "see" it.

Have you ever been duck hunting?!
'Cause that is how that 117 was brought down. Throw enough crap in the air along the 1 or 2 corridors of Ingress to the target at the times the others have been dropping ordinance, I bet you get lucky too...

Nope some Mods were made to a system against orders and it was just enough to get a lock. The Russians already knew how to do it. The guy who did it became a hero, but if he would have missed, it would have not been pretty. He changed the wavelength of the radar I think, to a wide band or something..

And the YF-23 that my friends at McDonnel Douglas worked on was superior to the YF-22 but hey, we know how that worked out.

That is SO true. Personally I think we should reopen the lines/keep open for the F22 and sell to Japan and Israel. We NEED F22's.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

The F-117A is a sub-sonic ground attack platform. It has no chance at all of ever engaging in, and certainly not winning, an air to air engagement. Modern Radars developed in Eastern Europe are entirely capable of detecting a vehicle with an RCS like the Nighthawk. One was shot down over Yugoslavia by a surface to air missile. You have to remember that the 117 is 30+ year old tech. While we advance, the rest of the world isn't just standing still. Countries whom see the US as potentially hostile are working on means to mitigate our tech advantage. The F22 and F35 represent a dramatic leap forward in anti-detection technology. The RCS's of these two modern aircraft are in fact beyond any currently known means of radar detection.

These vehicles are well worth the investment. Our airfleet is aging, other than the F22, our newest A2A airframe entered service in the 1980s. The B52 has been the workhorse of the strategic bombing wing for more than fifty years. Our previously top tier aircraft are sold on the market almost everywhere. F-15s and 16s serve in air forces around the globe. The f-22 itself represents unchallenged air superiority for the foreseeable future. That alone makes it worth its pricetag.

The Russians are flight testing their versions of stealth aircraft now. I don't know what their RCS are like compared to the F-22, but otherwise performance values are thought to be similar. It's a sad fact that whatever technology we can develop, other countries can steal or copy. We aren't THAT far ahead of our most dangerous foreign rivals.

 

[dross]

I hope those idiots at the Air War College are reading this thread. Maybe they'd learn something and get our air capability back on track. All that stupid studying and research when all they really need to do is read from post 1 to post 33, right here on INGO. Instead, those morons will probably just keep studying actual air conflicts in detail, analyzing current and past technology and trying to maintain our air superiority over the entire world. If they only knew how silly they appeared to the real experts here on INGO. There'd be some red faces down there in Montgomery I'd bet.

 

[badwolf.usmc]

The Russians are flight testing their versions of stealth aircraft now. I don't know what their RCS are like compared to the F-22, but otherwise performance values are thought to be similar. It's a sad fact that whatever technology we can develop, other countries can steal or copy. We aren't THAT far ahead of our most dangerous foreign rivals.

While China and Russia are starting to building aircraft that are within the same generation as the F-22, they have nowhere near the same numbers of aircraft we have or quality of pilots.

 

[Johnson]

While China and Russia are starting to building aircraft that are within the same generation as the F-22, they have nowhere near the same numbers of aircraft we have or quality of pilots.

Nope, not yet. But they are closing the gap fast. That's why we have to constantly move forward. That's also why we must demand the military make the best use of the budget dollars they are allocated, and deal with waste and fraud with the seriousness it deserves. I understand it is easy to say and hard to accomplish, but our national security demands this level of diligence. To date, we haven't done a good job at this.

 

[badwolf.usmc]

Nope, not yet. But they are closing the gap fast. That's why we have to constantly move forward. That's also why we must demand the military make the best use of the budget dollars they are allocated, and deal with waste and fraud with the seriousness it deserves. I understand it is easy to say and hard to accomplish, but our national security demands this level of diligence. To date, we haven't done a good job at this.

Not even close to bridging the gap. We have closed our production lines on our first 5th Gen aircraft, and nobody else has even introduced theirs to their fleet yet. Russia is a year or two away from starting full scale production while China is not going to hit production for between 5 & 10 years. India, Japan & Korea are even further behind.

The F-22 & F-35 are going to be the last mass produced man fighters the US will field. While we will always have manned fighters, UCAVs are already in the pipeline and will define future conflicts.

Also, the US is already working on 6th Gen aircraft.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Ike warned us against military/industry complex. We did not listen.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I hope those idiots at the Air War College are reading this thread. Maybe they'd learn something and get our air capability back on track. All that stupid studying and research when all they really need to do is read from post 1 to post 33, right here on INGO. Instead, those morons will probably just keep studying actual air conflicts in detail, analyzing current and past technology and trying to maintain our air superiority over the entire world. If they only knew how silly they appeared to the real experts here on INGO. There'd be some red faces down there in Montgomery I'd bet.

The Air Force, like the Army, has made some consistent errors over the years in their strategic thinking since aviators started to go into combat (this is true for most major aviation powers as well). I just recently finished a book titled "Air Power - The Men, Machines, and Ideas that Revolutionized War, From Kitty Hawk to Iraq" by Stephen Budiansky. A number of long-held ideas, from the use of fighters to the efficacy of strategic bombing turned out, on examination, to be less effective than advertised. Interesting read, well researched. I grew up in the Civil Air Patrol and Army Aviation and I learned that a whole bunch of stuff I was taught "just ain't so."

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Not even close to bridging the gap. We have closed our production lines on our first 5th Gen aircraft, and nobody else has even introduced theirs to their fleet yet. Russia is a year or two away from starting full scale production while China is not going to hit production for between 5 & 10 years. India, Japan & Korea are even further behind.

The F-22 & F-35 are going to be the last mass produced man fighters the US will field. While we will always have manned fighters, UCAVs are already in the pipeline and will define future conflicts.

Also, the US is already working on 6th Gen aircraft.

Time will tell whether your predictions are accurate, but I'd like to remind you that the production lines closed on the F-22 about 400 units before the projected need of the Air Force was reached. We can expect the same kind of underruns for the F-35, if, in fact it is ever put into production. UCAVs may or may not prove themselves in armed roles against other aircraft. Personally, I'm more concerned about them being "hacked" and turned back on their owners.