Encounter at Community Hospitial Anderson, Again.

[Echelon]

From a strictly logic point of view, there's nothing illogical about it. There are two issues here. One is a support for the RIGHT of the property owner to make his own rules and enforce them as he sees fit. The other is a respect for his specific wishes (rules) and choosing to be in compliance with them out of that respect.

It's only illogical if you think support for his rights is synonymous with respect for his wishes. Since it is not, there's no incongruity.

I think every property owner should have carte blanche to make up whatever rules he wants for anybody and anything concerning his property. And I think I should be able to violate them if I so choose. I also think said property owner should have almost carte blanche to enforce those rules, and I am willing to suffer the consequences of violating them.

I can support his rights without respecting his rules. And I have.

Thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to say, and you communicated the position much better than I ever could have!

 

[Burnsy]

I still disagree, must carry and must be present at location that will remove me do not agree. The keystone is must in both situations under current Indiana law. The two musts, given must means must, are illogical by current law and remaining present at the must location. Assuming must means must on both counts, one may disrupt the other.

I don't agree with the current laws, but curb side picking up my wife from the hospital is not the place to combat them.

 

[88GT]

So, you are on my private property, and carry a firearm in whatever holstered manner. I ask you to leave (this is a devils advocate argument). You choose to violate my carte blanche and remain. As a result I contact my local PD who will likely arrest and charge you with trespassing under the IC. What results?

At this point what do you care? I'm off your property.

Are you asking if I'm going to contradict myself and throw a fit about the consequences? The answer is 'no.' In the first place, I wouldn't refuse to leave. In the second, I said I was willing to suffer the consequences of my choice. If I'm stupid enough to refuse to leave, I have no one to blame but myself for what happens if you feel it's necessary to involve LE.

I guess I'm not seeing the devil's advocate issue. Help me out.

 

[92ThoStro]

Never OC, never appear to make any statement, don't carry in church, in family restaurants, in doctor's offices, hospitals, movie theaters or anywhere there are children, elderly, or sick people. Quietly hide your gun like a sneak, pretend to support the 2nd amendment, and let the rest of us do the work.

+1 OP -1 Paul

 

[Burnsy]

At this point what do you care? I'm off your property.

Are you asking if I'm going to contradict myself and throw a fit about the consequences? The answer is 'no.' In the first place, I wouldn't refuse to leave. In the second, I said I was willing to suffer the consequences of my choice. If I'm stupid enough to refuse to leave, I have no one to blame but myself for what happens if you feel it's necessary to involve LE.

I guess I'm not seeing the devil's advocate issue. Help me out.

Sorry I misunderstood your stance, we were talking about carrying a firearm on to private property owned by a hospital that was treating your wife/husband as the OP posted were he had past problems OCing. I incorrectly read your post and incorrectly understood that would stand your ground on private property in that situation.

 

[88GT]

Sorry I misunderstood your stance, we were talking about carrying a firearm on to private property owned by a hospital that was treating your wife/husband as the OP posted. I incorrectly read your post and incorrectly understood that would stand your ground on private property in that situation.

Gotcha!

Nope. I'm not that rude!

 

[Titanium_Frost]

If I choose to go somewhere, I carry. But I don't pretend to respect their rights while I do it

I see a very distinct difference between a domocile and "private" property used for business which people have an expectation to visit the property to generate revenue.

I have a very different opinion of "private" businesses who get a lot of public dollars to support them such as hospitals.

 

[churchmouse]

Never OC, never appear to make any statement, don't carry in church, in family restaurants, in doctor's offices, hospitals, movie theaters or anywhere there are children, elderly, or sick people. Quietly hide your gun like a sneak, pretend to support the 2nd amendment, and let the rest of us do the work.

+1 OP -1 Paul

Really.
We do a lot of work towards maintaining our 2nd amendment rights. We just do not go head to head in these situations especially if there has been previous issues and the outcome is a known result. The OP is doing nothing to "Advance" the 2A IMHO. He is being confrontational and that is not the answer.
Call me a sneak if you wish. I know better. Personally If the need arises I am more of a hands on kind of person as it offers so much more personal enjoyment and far less paper work.
So you are saying you have never, ever snuck something somewhere....ever???.............

 

[88GT]

If I choose to go somewhere, I carry. But I don't pretend to respect their rights while I do it

I see a very distinct difference between a domocile and "private" property used for business which people have an expectation to visit the property to generate revenue.

I have a very different opinion of "private" businesses who get a lot of public dollars to support them such as hospitals.

That's a cop-out because in terms of the rights of the property owner, there is no difference. What if the business were located in the domicile?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

That's a cop-out because in terms of the rights of the property owner, there is no difference. What if the business were located in the domicile?

It isn't a cop out, I ran a family business for years that was on the same property as the home. People with different opinions aren't always inferior to yourself, 88.

 

[88GT]

It isn't a cop out, I ran a family business for years that was on the same property as the home.

Well, you make an arbitrary distinction that has no basis in law. So if it's not a cop-out to excuse your self-serving opinion, then what is it?

People with different opinions aren't always inferior to yourself, 88.

This is rich coming from you.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Well, you make an arbitrary distinction that has no basis in law. So if it's not a cop-out to excuse your self-serving opinion, then what is it?

No basis in law? Really? There are very clear distinctions between someone's dwelling and their real property, business or not. Why is it then that in Indiana's Castle Doctrine it makes a clear reference to dwelling and curtiladge apart from other property?

Why else are there state and federal laws that affect businesses but not dwellings? (Discrimination, employment laws, equal opportunity, affirmitive action...)

As a landlord you understand the difference between YOUR property rights and the rights of your tennants can sometimes come into conflict so apply those principles to Wal-Mart and however more complicated "private" hospitals.

This is rich coming from you.

I am very opinionated and enjoy a good argument but I don't see myself as unreasonable or unable to succumb to a better point.

 

[actaeon277]

Okay you two. Take it easy or I'm gonna start crying.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Mommy and daddy are fighting!

 

[Bung]

I/we are not against OC. My son prefers it. I do not. Personal preferences.
My point is if you have already experienced this with these people then why stir up that mess a second time. Just does not seem like a good approach.
Glad it came out OK and all but really, pushing this again seems, well, silly. JMHO and nothing more.
I get the "It's our right" thing I really do.

I think you misunderstand my past experience. The first encounter only resulted in them checking to see if I had my LTCH. I wasn't told to leave it at home, check it into security, or to hide it. They didn't do or say anything to indicate that I wasn't allowed to carry there. Paul even told me they get alerted every time I'm on the premises. Why pick this time to stop me? He didn't know what the policy really is and neither did the two that stopped me last year. Emails to customer service about it go unanswered.

If policy really is to allow OC and no CC, then I would be violating policy by CC'ing the gun. If their policy is no firearms, then they should say as much. Some of you make out like I'm hurting carry if they actually post the 'no firearms' sign if that is their policy. If that is the policy, then that is the policy and it should be adhered to.

Some of you keep saying the property owner has the right to change the rules, well of course. But, representatives of the owner do not have the right to change the rules. The sign on the door is specific, it says, "NO CONCEALED FIREARMS" If I carried concealed there and they noticed, they could just as easily ban me from the property for violating a POSTED policy.

I'm not being confrontational. If that was the case, I would walk up to security and say, 'Look what I got!' and point to my gun. I've carried there for about 10 months since the first encounter without an issue so as far as I knew, it wasn't a problem. If policy allows for open carry, then I don't want to be harassed every time I carry there, how is that a problem for some of you? If policy doesn't allow carry of any type, then I'll leave the gun at home or check it in with security without causing a stir because I'm not being confrontational. I'm sure policy prevents discrimination but if a security guard started running off black people, would you still defend him as a representative of the property?

 

[churchmouse]

I think you misunderstand my past experience. The first encounter only resulted in them checking to see if I had my LTCH. I wasn't told to leave it at home, check it into security, or to hide it. They didn't do or say anything to indicate that I wasn't allowed to carry there. Paul even told me they get alerted every time I'm on the premises. Why pick this time to stop me? He didn't know what the policy really is and neither did the two that stopped me last year. Emails to customer service about it go unanswered.

If policy really is to allow OC and no CC, then I would be violating policy by CC'ing the gun. If their policy is no firearms, then they should say as much. Some of you make out like I'm hurting carry if they actually post the 'no firearms' sign if that is their policy. If that is the policy, then that is the policy and it should be adhered to.

Some of you keep saying the property owner has the right to change the rules, well of course. But, representatives of the owner do not have the right to change the rules. The sign on the door is specific, it says, "NO CONCEALED FIREARMS" If I carried concealed there and they noticed, they could just as easily ban me from the property for violating a POSTED policy.

I'm not being confrontational. If that was the case, I would walk up to security and say, 'Look what I got!' and point to my gun. I've carried there for about 10 months since the first encounter without an issue so as far as I knew, it wasn't a problem. If policy allows for open carry, then I don't want to be harassed every time I carry there, how is that a problem for some of you? If policy doesn't allow carry of any type, then I'll leave the gun at home or check it in with security without causing a stir because I'm not being confrontational. I'm sure policy prevents discrimination but if a security guard started running off black people, would you still defend him as a representative of the property?

These are sensitive times with anxiety's running high. If I did not read or understand your fist encounter my apology's.

There are so many who see OC as a way to garner attention or be confrontational in the name of their 2A rights.

 

[bnatc]

Einstein supposedly said insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.

If you have already had one incident there in the past that lets you know what type of policy and stance that they have, why even bother open carrying to give them something to make an issue of???

 

[bnatc]

I know what the laws say, and that you may have been in the 'right', but this is just another:

"I'm going to OC and don't give a d@mn what anyone else says; then I get to cry about it on the gun forum."

That is how it comes off to me, and that is what makes it so hard for everyone who tries to change the minds of those who fear law-abiding people who carry...

 

[danmrt868]

I get that he is saying post the right sign, or quit giving him problems everytime he's there. Knowing the the rules is apart of the job and they can't even tell them to him.

 

[Grump01]

Was at Community Anderson today, only on the back side though, Outpatient Lab and X-Ray. It appears they have went around and scraped off the word "Concealed" and leaving the rest of the wording "Firearms Prohibited in This Facility".