Embracing Caesarism for Cities

[indiucky]

Creating wealth requires capital.

Not really...Hard work and a willingness to work is capital...One's mind can be capital...An idea is capital....

I can't tell you the number of people I know who have a bit of wealth and yet started out with nothing.....

[video=youtube;KnEQD9Fralw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEQD9Fralw[/video]

 

[steveh_131]

Creating wealth requires capital. The people who already have capital aren't really affected by these problems, nor do they have any incentive to help solve them.

If you want to convert your labor into wealth with no capital of your own then you get a job. You supply the labor, your employer supplies the capital - a poof of magic - wealth!

 

[Lowe0]

Not really...Hard work and a willingness to work is capital...One's mind can be capital...An idea is capital....

Hard work? Far from a guarantee. Go volunteer at a food bank sometime, listen to the people who are working two jobs and still not getting anywhere. There's a finite amount of opportunity out there, no matter how hard you're willing to work for it.

 

[indiucky]

Hard work? Far from a guarantee.

Guarantee? I said nothing about a guarantee...I said that hard work is capital...If you don't believe that I suggest you volunteer to hang out with some working folks that believe their hard work is their capital....

 

[Woobie]

So catch me up, here. What I'm gathering is: The only people who will ever be rich are those who are already rich. The poor can not afford anything at all. It's all the fault of the sinister CCC, aka the Curtain Climbing Cartel, aka the Rug Rat Syndicate, and only by taking them out can we achieve lasting prosperity.

 

[Lowe0]

Guarantee? I said nothing about a guarantee...I said that hard work is capital...If you don't believe that I suggest you volunteer to hang out with some working folks that believe their hard work is their capital....

Telling people that if they work hard, then things may get better is a nice ideal, but again, I'm interested in implementable solutions, not ideals.

 

[Lowe0]

So catch me up, here. What I'm gathering is: The only people who will ever be rich are those who are already rich. The poor can not afford anything at all. It's all the fault of the sinister CCC, aka the Curtain Climbing Cartel, aka the Rug Rat Syndicate, and only by taking them out can we achieve lasting prosperity.

I'm not even suggesting lasting prosperity (that's unrealistic), just halting the slide of the bottom end.

 

[steveh_131]

Telling people that if they work hard, then things may get better is a nice ideal, but again, I'm interested in implementable solutions, not ideals.

Let's be honest about this. When you say "implementable solutions", what you really mean is Big Government.

I mean, the best implementable solution is to free the market from government regulation. There will always be poor people, but a free market is empirically the best way to minimize their numbers.

But that's not what you want. You want more government programs - because what YOU are chasing is an ideal. This fantasy world where nobody is poor and everybody is equal. That's not the real world. In the real world you achieve maximum wealth with a free market and no safety nets beyond voluntary charitable giving.

 

[Lowe0]

Let's be honest about this. When you say "implementable solutions", what you really mean is Big Government.

I mean, the best implementable solution is to free the market from government regulation. There will always be poor people, but a free market is empirically the best way to minimize their numbers.

But that's not what you want. You want more government programs - because what YOU are chasing is an ideal. This fantasy world where nobody is poor and everybody is equal. That's not the real world. In the real world you achieve maximum wealth with a free market and no safety nets beyond voluntary charitable giving.

Again, what I'm looking for isn't a world where no one is poor, and definitely not one where everyone is equal. I'm just trying to figure out how we keep things from getting worse than they are now. I don't think that's the free market, because the free market runs on incentives, and what incentive is there to pay Americans a living wage when someone else will do your job for pennies on the dollar on the other side of the globe?

 

[BugI02]

So if we also want to take killing people off the table, then we're left with preventing conception in the first place. Now, someone will go "let em pay for their own pills!", but again, we can link arms and block the idea because it's the dreaded government using money for something, or we can look at the cost savings. To me, the conservative direction is to pursue results, not principle.

Any and all Americans are free to not have children should they wish. There is no need to try to implement some overarching program to control everybody's behavior. Isn't the old saw to think globally and act locally? Nothing more local than how you use your own johnson. And to my mind you are wrong in saying conservatives pursue results and not priciples. One of the primary things that conservatives wish to 'conserve' are the founding principals which made this country exceptional and great. We are results seeking but not results driven

 

[steveh_131]

Again, what I'm looking for isn't a world where no one is poor, and definitely not one where everyone is equal. I'm just trying to figure out how we keep things from getting worse than they are now. I don't think that's the free market, because the free market runs on incentives, and what incentive is there to pay Americans a living wage when someone else will do your job for pennies on the dollar on the other side of the globe?

And despite cheap labor all over the globe, there are still millions of jobs right here in the U.S.

The reality is that it is not all that cheap to move a job offshore. There is plenty of extra overhead involved. The problem is that our government is screwing over businesses so hard that even that extra overhead looks attractive.

Want to stop destroying the middle class? Less government, like yesterday.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[indiucky]

Telling people that if they work hard, then things may get better is a nice ideal, but again, I'm interested in implementable solutions, not ideals.

Working hard is an implementable solution....I said nothing about "telling people to work hard"....I said that hard work is capital... Par example, I cut a neighbors grass and neighbor gives me $25....I clean a neighbors gutters and get another $50....Ergo, hard work equates to capital...


I know well adjusted, very happy people that are dirt poor...I know folks with a bit of money that are miserable...It seems that in your world the only way "things may get better" is through wealth....In America our poorest tend to not be hungry (as we are a very chubby nation and that's okay), our poorest have computers, flat screen TV's, cars, Ipads, cell phones etc.....

Every American is (compared to the rest of the world) a dreaded 1%'er......


I mean look at this poor Occupy Wall Street protester....What a tremendous burden life has been for her...

Or this poor thing...How can we help these poor folks out?

This poor young lady can only afford to have Half of her hair dyed pink...Oh the humanity!!!!!

These images are pretty traumatic...Seeing the harsh reality of poverty in America...Most of us are immune to the poor around us but I, like Sally Struthers, sometimes think these images can bring to stark reality the poverty, grit, and grime that is our world.....

Look at these images of poverty....Occupying Wall Street, just wanting their piece of the pie...Nothing more...Just what's their's...

I can only hope I can shake these images out of my head before I head home tonight and have me a peanut butter and bologna sandwich....I know I will feel guilty while eating it....

Here is another poverty stricken young lady that can only afford to dye half of her hair....

 

[Lowe0]

Ah, that's the problem. You think I'm talking about Occupy protesters. Not at all who I had in mind.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Telling people that if they work hard, then things may get better is a nice ideal, but again, I'm interested in implementable solutions, not ideals.

I will grant you that theft is always the fastest way out of a cash crunch, but it is not sustainable on a number of levels whether done directly or vicariously through government.

Again, what I'm looking for isn't a world where no one is poor, and definitely not one where everyone is equal. I'm just trying to figure out how we keep things from getting worse than they are now. I don't think that's the free market, because the free market runs on incentives, and what incentive is there to pay Americans a living wage when someone else will do your job for pennies on the dollar on the other side of the globe?

You are looking at only one side of the coin when you address the free market's response to incentives. It also responds to disincentives. When people are constantly f**ked with by apparatchiks who need fitted for concrete swimwear, it is a strong disincentive to stay and a strong incentive to find somewhere else in the world to relocate in spite of having to absorb the cost of moving product halfway around the world, dealing with fly-by-night third-world governments, and the barriers introduced by having to train completely uneducated peasants to perform skilled tasks.

For what it is worth, several years ago a group started manufacturing clothing, if I remember correctly, in Los Angeles, and discovered that the difference in cost of product FOB Los Angeles was insignificant compared with Asian production. Of course, I recall that this group for whatever reason (been too long to remember all the gritty details) was deemed politically preferred and therefore didn't have to spend as much money on fighting government as it spent producing product, so it made for a good comparison of actual cost. On the other hand, most of us who live in the real world have no shortage of .gov kibitzing by apparatchiks who consider making life difficult and expensive their purpose for existing.