Embracing Caesarism for Cities

[Kirk Freeman]

I thought from reading INGO that Right-wingers/Libertarians were for local control and devolving power from the state? Apparently not, or, at least, not all of them.

Manhattan Institute cries out for the iron hand of control. What does INGO think? More control of local government or less?

"But states need to step in, Caesar-like, earlier and more vigorously than they’ve been doing."

Caesarism for Cities | City Journal

 

[T.Lex]

Whoa. They've been to Carmel?

 

[Twangbanger]

I guess it depends whether you're a pensioned municipal employee?

 

[SnoopLoggyDog]

Will not help in one party states like the Peoples Republic of California or Democratic Republic of Illinois. They are in just as deep a hole fiscally as the cities.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Much argument has derived from the remark made by John Adams that our system of government is suitable only for a religious people and inadequate for any other, usually taking form of his personal opinion versus the First Amendment (as with Jefferson's 'wall of separation') and the argument that being religious not being necessary for morality.

Setting aside those arguments and taking out the practical element of being internally motivated to act in certain ways rather than in response to external force, the same truth has surfaced a few times (I am not sure who deserves credit for its origin) in less controversial form in that those who cannot govern themselves will be governed by others (never mind that the others in question may not be so virtuous themselves).

That said, governing units, city, state, or federal, which cannot achieve any passable form of fiscal responsibility are in the condition they are in because they are made up of people who vote who are not capable of achieving fiscal responsibility themselves. Until that problem is solved, there will be no top-down solution which works unless of course you believe that there is such a thing as a benevolent dictator.

 

[trucker777]

I think since they've rejected everything that America was founded to be and the history behind it, then let them wallow in it. Peoples truly get the governments they deserve.

 

[rob63]

I don't think it has much to do with the size of the government, city vs. state, so much as whether a single party has become so entrenched that it can ignore the desires of the people as a whole that they are supposed to serve in favor of the special interests that reward the politicians. Cities and states in which the politicians have legitimate fears about being thrown out by the voters are much better run than single party entities, regardless of which party is running things. Single-party rule becomes a safe-haven for those attracted to power rather than service.

On a local note, I am not much in favor of the recent trend in the statehouse to pass laws preempting local laws. I may agree with the desired outcome, but I prefer sticking to the principal of letting the local voters decide for themselves what they want their city to be like.

 

[renauldo]

That said, governing units, city, state, or federal, which cannot achieve any passable form of fiscal responsibility are in the condition they are in because they are made up of people who vote who are not capable of achieving fiscal responsibility themselves..

\

Profound!!!

Decades of entitlements have insured fiscally balanced impossibility.

 

[trucker777]

Much argument has derived from the remark made by John Adams that our system of government is suitable only for a religious people and inadequate for any other, usually taking form of his personal opinion versus the First Amendment (as with Jefferson's 'wall of separation') and the argument that being religious not being necessary for morality.

Setting aside those arguments and taking out the practical element of being internally motivated to act in certain ways rather than in response to external force, the same truth has surfaced a few times (I am not sure who deserves credit for its origin) in less controversial form in that those who cannot govern themselves will be governed by others (never mind that the others in question may not be so virtuous themselves).

That said, governing units, city, state, or federal, which cannot achieve any passable form of fiscal responsibility are in the condition they are in because they are made up of people who vote who are not capable of achieving fiscal responsibility themselves. Until that problem is solved, there will be no top-down solution which works unless of course you believe that there is such a thing as a benevolent dictator.

It's almost like it was done on purpose... but I think more likely it's just the life cycle of nations.

 

[Spear Dane]

The problem is the massive post WW2 birth rate (AKA Baby Boomers) which was followed be a steep decline in birth rate. Picture a pig swallowed by a Python.
Then the BB's decided life is great, lets quit smoking and sitting on our asses and outlive both our usefulness AND the money set aside for the golden years, which used to average about FIVE but now is easily 10 or more. There are not enough tax payers in the following generations to support this ongoing wave of retirements.

 

[chipbennett]

Cities have been weaned off of self-reliance and onto the government teat, in much the same way that 47% of individuals have been institutionalized into a reliance on the government.

Is there a city, anywhere, with truly local control, and truly local funding for truly local governance? To pretend like the State and/or Fed.gov would only now be "stepping in" would be to ignore how fundamentally ingrained State/Federal regulation and funding already dictate at the local level.

 

[Woobie]

It's funny how these things are inexorable. If we were to dissolve the United States and all the state governments, in 150 years we would have 4 or 5 huge city states dominating the former USA. Places like Indianapolis would be fiefdoms to places like Chicago. There would be some modern version of the Peloppenesian League in place ensuring peace and trade between the major powers.

The funny thing is, it's happening in a way. Indy is sucking up more and more of the central part of Indiana. There is no power in IL outside of Chicago. States are absorbing power from the municipalities, and the Feds are holding sway over the states, largely through pulling the Federal Money strings.

It is how it has always been. Eventually, the power will all be concentrated at the top. After a period of time, the top will collapse under its own weight and be susceptible to outside forces, a la Rome, or **** off the citizenry so badly the people revolt and establish a new form of government, a la France. Usually these follow on regimes are worse than what they replaced.

People are people, and while the governments they set up vary, it is always people in charge, and the results are predictable.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The problem is the massive post WW2 birth rate (AKA Baby Boomers) which was followed be a steep decline in birth rate. Picture a pig swallowed by a Python.
Then the BB's decided life is great, lets quit smoking and sitting on our asses and outlive both our usefulness AND the money set aside for the golden years, which used to average about FIVE but now is easily 10 or more. There are not enough tax payers in the following generations to support this ongoing wave of retirements.

I would have to simultaneously agree and disagree. You are absolutely right about the effect of the conditions you outline, but I would say that this amounts to preventing the 'cheat' from working. Maintaining a massive Ponzi scheme based on the presumption of continuous population growth is very much a 'cheat' that, for some time, compensated for a viable method of operation. Removal of the effectiveness of the 'cheat' in no way affects the viability of the basic situation which had worked previously because the notion of 'retiring' in the sense of eschewing work for the rest of your life was a concept hatched largely during the FD Roosevelt administration as a way of making jobs available for younger workers by persuading and incentivizing the older workers to stand down.

It's funny how these things are inexorable. If we were to dissolve the United States and all the state governments, in 150 years we would have 4 or 5 huge city states dominating the former USA. Places like Indianapolis would be fiefdoms to places like Chicago. There would be some modern version of the Peloppenesian League in place ensuring peace and trade between the major powers.

The funny thing is, it's happening in a way. Indy is sucking up more and more of the central part of Indiana. There is no power in IL outside of Chicago. States are absorbing power from the municipalities, and the Feds are holding sway over the states, largely through pulling the Federal Money strings.

It is how it has always been. Eventually, the power will all be concentrated at the top. After a period of time, the top will collapse under its own weight and be susceptible to outside forces, a la Rome, or **** off the citizenry so badly the people revolt and establish a new form of government, a la France. Usually these follow on regimes are worse than what they replaced.

People are people, and while the governments they set up vary, it is always people in charge, and the results are predictable.

Very true, and I have found only one viable way to prevent such problems. Unfortunately that ship at minimum already sailed and most likely already sank. Had our founders expanded on the Constitutional requirement for each state to provide a republican form of government and further required legislatures set up in parallel to the congress so far as having one house apportioned by population and the other by geographical unit, it would have prevented situations like Chicago being able to treat the remainder of Illinois like a conquered province. Unfortunately, that did not happen, and we are most likely on the way to the destination you describe.

 

[renauldo]

The problem is the massive post WW2 birth rate (AKA Baby Boomers) which was followed be a steep decline in birth rate. Picture a pig swallowed by a Python.
Then the BB's decided life is great, lets quit smoking and sitting on our asses and outlive both our usefulness AND the money set aside for the golden years, which used to average about FIVE but now is easily 10 or more. There are not enough tax payers in the following generations to support this ongoing wave of retirements.

Ridiculous!!!! In the '70's we "boomers" achieved zero population growth by actually using newly developed, effective birth control measures and legalized abortion to maintain effective fiscal responsibility down to the individual household level. Since it was realized that more people lived longer households were self limited to self supporting sizes. The Government starting treating the SS savings account like a personal bank account and "borrowed" billions, never to be returned, to establish funding for the Viet Nam war and establish entitlement programs to feed the mouths of baby mommies and their ever increasing broods of the worthless, forever dependent on handouts to survive.
The SS Disability tree needs to be shaken so the millions of fat currently unemployables find a job and pay into the system. The undocumented and documented aliens so eagerly accepted into the country need to pay taxes into the system instead of exploiting it. Kids that feel that higher education ensures a six figure job better get their heads on straight and get their ass out their parents basement and realize in our downward spiraling economy they'll be fighting for jobs at Mcdonalds unless they learn a trade or dig a straight ditch. I fully expect the next administration to start forgiving student loans, burdening the boomers with more dept to go unpaid.
My payments into SS track back 45 years. If our Goverment had invested that money as promised I'd be rollin in dough. At least I'm getting back what I put in the system because my generation was fiscally responsible. You people are screwed.
Here's a thought. Bullet wounds average $35,000 per incidence amounting to billions wasted in treatment for the morons in Chicago alone. Why not place some blame for the current fiscal situation on a segment of society that sticks out like the nose on your face.

 

[indiucky]

Et tu Brutus? Et tu?

 

[Tactically Fat]

Et tu Brutus? Et tu?

Dude, that was last week.

Beware! Beware!

 

[Thor]

Cities are not alone in their fiscal malfeasance. Most County government is following (or being bribed to line up) closely.

The fiscal strings have been tied quite tightly to the federal government and the line runs straight from the lowest form of organization through the states and those strings are there to remove freedoms and require acquiescence. And once these lines of fiscal control had been drawn they were duly relinquished to the executive agencies which now misrule us as they please.

And now, they look to remove responsibility of the fiscal fiasco one more step from the people with the grand new regionalism concept. Now unelected 'officials' are going to be allowed to both spend tax money and levy new requirements.

I can feel for Tacitus looking back at the age of Cicero and lamenting the republic that was. Welcome to our new tyranny, the Tyranny of the Bureaucracies.

Can we regain some measure of freedom? Maybe. But not so long as 'representatives' are more interested in running the machine than paying attention to the people who sent them to the forum.

 

[Spear Dane]

Ridiculous!!!! In the '70's we "boomers" achieved zero population growth by actually using newly developed, effective birth control measures and legalized abortion to maintain effective fiscal responsibility down to the individual household level. Since it was realized that more people lived longer households were self limited to self supporting sizes. The Government starting treating the SS savings account like a personal bank account and "borrowed" billions, never to be returned, to establish funding for the Viet Nam war and establish entitlement programs to feed the mouths of baby mommies and their ever increasing broods of the worthless, forever dependent on handouts to survive.
The SS Disability tree needs to be shaken so the millions of fat currently unemployables find a job and pay into the system. The undocumented and documented aliens so eagerly accepted into the country need to pay taxes into the system instead of exploiting it. Kids that feel that higher education ensures a six figure job better get their heads on straight and get their ass out their parents basement and realize in our downward spiraling economy they'll be fighting for jobs at Mcdonalds unless they learn a trade or dig a straight ditch. I fully expect the next administration to start forgiving student loans, burdening the boomers with more dept to go unpaid.
My payments into SS track back 45 years. If our Goverment had invested that money as promised I'd be rollin in dough. At least I'm getting back what I put in the system because my generation was fiscally responsible. You people are screwed.
Here's a thought. Bullet wounds average $35,000 per incidence amounting to billions wasted in treatment for the morons in Chicago alone. Why not place some blame for the current fiscal situation on a segment of society that sticks out like the nose on your face.

Silly person. You proved my point in the first two sentences and don't even realize it.

 

[Lowe0]

... baby mommies and their ever increasing broods of the worthless, forever dependent on handouts to survive.

Here's a thought: perhaps conservative politicians could stop telling us that all life is precious and must be protected? You already acknowledged abortion and contraception; it boggles my mind that we still rail against these and then wonder why we have more people than we have resources to care for.

 

[Thor]

Yeah, life is so much better when we can whelp and then kill off our offspring like Zeus. yummy, yummy offspring. Responsibility? What the heck is that? This country is obviously better off without family values.

Perhaps liberals could stop telling us that after your mommy dropped you anything you want to do now is okay.

Me? I'm the party of death. You want to kill your offspring? Okay, you shouldn't procreate. You want me to pay for it? Then you need to be sterilized. After you've made it past the 'birth barrier' if you screw up then off to the felon zapper with you.

Apply purple where you need.

Back on thread...good article.