Elkhart Police Detain Andrew Champ for legally carrying

[1775usmarine]

I keep hearing the comparison of the LTCH and a drivers license. Have any of you been pulled over for a tail light out and refused to present your drivers license when asked?

I understand that in perfect (constitutionally-driven) world, we should not have to have a pink card to exercise our 2a rights. That is not the world we live in.

The right has already been eroded, and being *********s when asked to show your 'permit' or license does NOTHING to further our cause.

I am not a lawyer, but my interpretation of the Indiana Code is this:

1. By default, it is against the law in Indiana to carry a handgun unless you are in one of the exempted groups (obtaining a LTCH is one of them).

2. The burden of proof to 'show exemption' is on you, not the police officer. Until that happens, an argument could be made that there is RAS that a crime is being committed. (Everyone seems to think that OC'ing a firearm is not a valid reason for a stop. I contend that it is until you show the LTCH)

3. Once the LTCH is displayed, the burden of proof for detaining the individual changes. At this point the officer has to have RAS not related to the firearm that would cause the stop to continue. If the officer cannot articulate that, then the person is within their right to not cooperate further.

This whole premise of being a jacka$$ to officers (most of the ones I encounter support our right to carry) trying to do their job to make a point that nobody gets is harmful.

Which outcome is better? Having the officer look at the LTCH and say "Thanks, have a nice day, sorry to have bothered you." or the episode that played out in the video.

The public is watching. Many of us OC because we want our communities to get used to seeing it. We would like it to be treated as normal. Every time one of these guys turns a simple encounter into a scene, we may look at it and say "good for you, way to stand firm", but the people watching are seeing it differently. They see a radical with a gun, unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement, and ask why. The answer they end up at is not "because they were standing up for their rights".

My grandfather used to ask me "What do you hope to achieve by the action you are about to take?". Let's think about what we ultimately want to accomplish....

I agree. I like to open carry as well. I have been asked for my LTCH and never gave the cop an attitude. Got my LTCH back and was on my way some of the cops would ask what I was carrying and say cool or whatever and they would go. To give a cop an attitude gives him right to investigate further.

 

[RLC]

You are incorrect. According to the IC, the police DO have the authority to stop and check your LTCH if they see you carrying a handgun. Remember, it is illegal to carry a handgun in this state. One of the exceptions to this law are holders of a valid License To Carry Handgun.

Yep. Even thouigh I've only lived in Indiana about 3 years I know this. You need a license to carry. The Law is pretty explicit. Based on the ease with which you can obtain a License why not just get one?

PS- Those Cops were just doing their job & seemed pretty nice about it..

 

[SHCdvldg]

So is driving a car.

It won't be long before the decision of the 4th Circuit applies to whole country.

It will be long overdue.

It baffles my mind how anyone can think this sort of behavior by law enforcement is acceptable.

 

[steveh_131]

Yep. Even thouigh I've only lived in Indiana about 3 years I know this. You need a license to carry. The Law is pretty explicit. Based on the ease with which you can obtain a License why not just get one?

PS- Those Cops were just doing their job & seemed pretty nice about it..

Welcome to INGO.

 

[Expat]

I would like to have seen the first part of the encounter. It does appear that the officer simply asked if he had his license and the OP refused to cooperate. That was his decision.

 

[88GT]

Yep. Even thouigh I've only lived in Indiana about 3 years I know this. You need a license to carry. The Law is pretty explicit. Based on the ease with which you can obtain a License why not just get one?

PS- Those Cops were just doing their job & seemed pretty nice about it..

(Godwin Alert!!!!!)


So were the Nazis, RLC, so were the Nazis.

That excuse does get much traction around here. WIth good reason.

 

[phil]

Is it time for an OC event downtown Elkhart?

 

[IndyBeerman]

Doesn't always happen that way. Some officers still push and lecture. The gun community is at the leisure of "Am I going to get a good cop, or a bad cop today?"

Good cop, no problem, bad cop, well then you still don't need to be an a$$ bag, fix the problem by making sure that they are informed, by starting from the top down. Then a video showing a respectful gun owner towards the law has more weight.

The video would have been better served if there would have been a better interaction from both parties, it just makes 2A people as a whole look bad.

You just don't see good videos shown on how most of the 2A people act on TV where they are commented and praised about. It's the combative disrespectful ones that shows us in a bad way that is commented and dissected on how we are and act.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Articulable - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

ar-tic-u-la-ble adjective \är-ˈti-kyə-lə-bəl\

: capable of being articulated




Is a word. Try again.

Curse you Interweb and your handy reference sources. I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddlesome kids!

 

[JB357Mag]

Im proud of my LTCH and would gladly show it
to an officer if asked.

I just want to get on with my day, no extra
complications for me.

Jimmy

 

[Booya]

http://youtu.be/kgKRBi1H1PM

This is a friend of a friend of mine. Please make phone calls for answers regarding this. When they make mistakes, they need to be held accountable for them.

When asked for my handgun permit by two Elkhart Police Officers, I asked what crime I have committed. They said that they have legal right to stop anyone open-carrying a handgun. This is false. I explained that they have no legal right to harass me when I have committed no crime; and that carrying a handgun is not wrongful.

I am respectful to police and the scum they have to deal with on a daily basis. I was in a friend's local business with my family when they started questioning me, then handcuffed me in front of my friends, my fiance, and my daughter.

He told me I was being detained for "having a handgun in his pocket".

I'm confused, OP says this is a "friend of a friend" then continues OP in first person... So it's not actually mightysanta?

Either way, what happens now that it's been determined the police were within their authority? Will the cameraman apologize for his accusation of harassment? The OP just tried to throw these guys under the bus to 30k Hoosiers and was completely incorrect. I bet Mr. Champ would have been asking for a formal apology, is the incorrect party going to issue one?

 

[Expat]

No, he took his complaint to FB instead.

 

[Booya]

No, he took his complaint to FB instead.

Haha, of course! Next natural step of progression isn't it!

 

[johnny45]

If only we followed the plain text, such encounters would be recognized for what they are.

Indiana Article I, Section 32
The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.

Secondarily:
Constitution of the united States, Amendment II
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

If only we followed the plain text, such encounters would be recognized for what they are.

Indiana Article I, Section 32
The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.

Secondarily:
Constitution of the united States, Amendment II
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Your order is out-of-place as you listed the primary second, and vice-versa, but yes. I don't know what could be made more plain about either of those enunciations.

Still, cheaper to comply than to risk imprisonment, isn't it?

For now, at least.

 

[gdunn]

I keep hearing the comparison of the LTCH and a drivers license. Have any of you been pulled over for a tail light out and refused to present your drivers license when asked?

I understand that in perfect (constitutionally-driven) world, we should not have to have a pink card to exercise our 2a rights. That is not the world we live in.

The right has already been eroded, and being *********s when asked to show your 'permit' or license does NOTHING to further our cause.

I am not a lawyer, but my interpretation of the Indiana Code is this:

1. By default, it is against the law in Indiana to carry a handgun unless you are in one of the exempted groups (obtaining a LTCH is one of them).

2. The burden of proof to 'show exemption' is on you, not the police officer. Until that happens, an argument could be made that there is RAS that a crime is being committed. (Everyone seems to think that OC'ing a firearm is not a valid reason for a stop. I contend that it is until you show the LTCH)

3. Once the LTCH is displayed, the burden of proof for detaining the individual changes. At this point the officer has to have RAS not related to the firearm that would cause the stop to continue. If the officer cannot articulate that, then the person is within their right to not cooperate further.

This whole premise of being a jacka$$ to officers (most of the ones I encounter support our right to carry) trying to do their job to make a point that nobody gets is harmful.

Which outcome is better? Having the officer look at the LTCH and say "Thanks, have a nice day, sorry to have bothered you." or the episode that played out in the video.

The public is watching. Many of us OC because we want our communities to get used to seeing it. We would like it to be treated as normal. Every time one of these guys turns a simple encounter into a scene, we may look at it and say "good for you, way to stand firm", but the people watching are seeing it differently. They see a radical with a gun, unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement, and ask why. The answer they end up at is not "because they were standing up for their rights".

My grandfather used to ask me "What do you hope to achieve by the action you are about to take?". Let's think about what we ultimately want to accomplish....

Well said.

 

[gdunn]

Suspected guilty until proven innocent.
QUOTE]


And that is different from almost every other interaction a person has with law enforcement how? Sounds about par for the course to me.

 

[gdunn]

Someone in the know please correct me if I'm wrong. As I read current law, we are not required to have on our person our handgun permit. Just be liscenced to carry which they can check. Secondly I believe that the police have to have probable cause that you have or are comiting a crime to detain you. By carrying you are not committing a crime so they would need some sort of other suspicion of a crime. Not a lawyer here but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

The act of carrying a weapon without a permit in itself is a crime. Until they can make the determination you are lawfully carrying, they have RAS to detain you for further investigation. If the police really want to be *******s you can be detained for 72 hours (federal limitations, many states have more restrictive statues) and never charged with a crime. But they must allow for legal representation when requested from the very beginning... that's your best move in any situation.

 

[apsjiml]

I understand the arguments but really what kind of felon would walk down the street with his wife and kid listening to a band while open carrying? Really, I see people open carry all the time, I don't think anything of it.

 

[j706]

I understand the arguments but really what kind of felon would walk down the street with his wife and kid listening to a band while open carrying? Really, I see people open carry all the time, I don't think anything of it.

You might be surprised. Criminals typically are pretty stupid to be blunt.