E 85 Gas

[suby]

While this may have worked on something in the past for you, making a blanket statement such as this for all the products on the road is a joke(at best).

Sort of... larger flow rate injectors + larger volume pump + TUNE

That last one is the most important.

There is nothing else you would need to change on the vast majority of cars on the road today.

In fact, some cars could run E85 with only a tune. It all depends on what your current injector duty cycle is (preferably @ wide open throttle). Same with the fuel pump.

So for example if your injectors and fuel pump were only at 60% duty at wide open throttle (unlikely, just an example), you could tune in the additional 30% needed to run E85 and be ready to go.

Someone else mentioned being able to run E85 safely with no modification to the car as long as you were easy on it because the O2 sensor will adjust everything for you. This is true. By tuning in the additional 30% needed when installing large injectors and pump, we are essentially doing the same thing; just permanently instead of waiting for the O2 sensor and ECU to do it for us.

Keep in mind though that factory O2 sensors are not wideband sensors except for in the most expensive / performance production cars. So while it is okay to use E85 in a pinch and take it easy until you can get gasoline, you should not just start running E85 all the time and rely on the O2 sensor and ECU to work things out for you. It isn't accurate enough and your injectors and pump likely cannot handle it unless you never exceed a certain throttle percentage (and it would be a low percentage compared to 100% WOT). All it would take is one slip up where you forget, and you floor it and hit WOT. BOOM! One bad enough knock and you're rebuilding that engine.

 

[suby]

Soo I missed the entire second page..whoops.. doesn't change anything I said above, but I would like to add..

About the cars throwing lean codes... of course they are!

That's because the they aren't built (injectors and pump) or tuned for E85.

Like I mentioned above, the driver simply exceeded the throttle percentage of what the stock injectors+pump could handle. That = lean condition.

Also, I totally forgot about exhaust gas temps being higher and it ruining catalytic converters. Ya, that'll happen... benefits of being catless ..

 

[fireball168]

There is nothing else you would need to change on the vast majority of cars on the road today.

Keep in mind though that factory O2 sensors are not wideband sensors except for in the most expensive / performance production cars.

Newsflash - its 2010.

AFS/UEGO's are in use by pratically the entire industry - and have been for the last 2-7 years, depending on manufacturer.

The only place you'll find an O2 is for after cat monitoring on these vehicles.

 

[chizzle]

Flex Fueled Vehicles Can't Hurt...

What you going to do if all that is left is E85 gas?

Right now, one of my cars is almost 100% E85. How can we tell if the gas we just got is E85 in a survival situation.

Personally, I like flex fueled vehicles, because they give me more options. While the cost effectiveness of using E85 varies day by day (depending on local pricing at pumps), I'd rather be able to use it, than not (and I do when it's cost effective).

Here's a simple explanation about how to measure the gasoline percentage in your sample of E85 using just a graduated cylinder, water, and a fuel sample:

How to test for gasohol percentage - GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars

For folks that are worried about where to get fuel in the event of an emergency, or who simply want to support sustainable fuels, you can contact Central Indiana Ethanol in Marion, IN for a fuel tank that you can buy and keep on your own property. I don't know all the details, but I believe that they have a 550 gallon tank that they'll come fill on your property for ~$1.89 per gallon. Contact them for more details, but if I lived in an area where I could have one, I probably would.

Another quick note, ethanol often get's a bad rap for having "lots of water" in the fuel. This is typically based on experience with Brazillian ethanol, where they had up to ~2% water. The US ethanol producers typically produce ethanol with a fraction of a percent of water, so it's really comparing apples and oranges, but many people still have the perception that it's all the same.

 

[suby]

Fireball: Ok, bad choice of words I guess...I just always call them O2 sensors.

You are correct though, manufactures do use "UEGOs," usually in the exhaust manifold... but they are narrow band! And that is the point. Doesn't matter what they are called. Some manufactures even call them "wideband" but this is not correct. The accuracy is horrible for tuning and repeatability of results is all over the place. Keep in mind this is in the "rich" part of the map that I am talking about, which is where any tuning would take place. They are accurate on the lean side, in closed loop, which is where they were designed to be accurate. But that isn't where I'm concerned about accuracy.

What I was getting at in the above post was that you need a true wideband sensor to tune a vehicle properly and you shouldn't rely on the factory O2 sensor (or UEGO) to produce reliable enough results whether you are tuning or you are attempting to run E85 on a vehicle not set up for it (which I'm not advising in the first place). Either way you are asking for trouble without running a true wideband sensor.

I didn't include this in the "parts needs to run E85" list because it is implied if tuning the car. If tuning yourself, you should have one. If you are having the car tuned, your tuner will have one to use while he tunes your car. If not, find a new tuner.

 

[wolfman]

What you going to do if all that is left is E85 gas?

Right now, one of my cars is almost 100% E85. How can we tell if the gas we just got is E85 in a survival situation.

In a SHTF situation, it really isn't going to matter much, since after you run your present tank full out, you will be walking. Gas stations generally only have about 30 to 40,000 gal on hand in the tanks, and in a SHTF senerio, the terminals will shut down their entire distribution system. Once the local retail stations run out, that will be it, done, empty, no more fuel available. Also you can pretty much count on local government taking over as much of the available supply as possible, to fuel emergency equipment, and the public will be left with only what they have on hand at the time.

 

[fireball168]

You are correct though, manufactures do use "UEGOs," usually in the exhaust manifold... but they are narrow band!

Again - welcome to 2010.

They can't make LEV/SULEV/PZEVO with a "narrow band" conventional sensor.

If you want to compare a $600+ "tuner" sensor with what is currently being used by the OEM's - then you have a point, up to a point.

 

[indykid]

And to think, on a firearm website we can learn so much about fuel systems!!!

 

[suby]

If you want to compare a $600+ "tuner" sensor with what is currently being used by the OEM's - then you have a point, up to a point.

Ok fair enough lol

And I agree about the SULEV/PZEVO most likely not having "narrow band" sensors, but most vehicles don't fall into this category.

Either way, my whole point was: If not properly modified and tuned, you're asking for trouble using E85 in a car designed for gasoline. I think you'd agree with that right?

 

[fireball168]

....but most vehicles don't fall into this category.

Either way, my whole point was: If not properly modified and tuned, you're asking for trouble using E85 in a car designed for gasoline. I think you'd agree with that right?

More and more, they can't afford not too make them that way - a lot of vehicles you wouldn't think are now certified.

But yes, for the most part - I generally agree with your statement.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I know a guy who did it in college too and now for 20 years as a Pro. He has spent more money then we can imagine just to test gas on the dynos and in the field so he can know what it does in their engines.

His findings..........E85 is crap.

Simply put water does damage to engines. It does more damage quicker than you think. Not stomping on anyone here, just sharing what this guy knows and I have known him for 40 years. He is in the marine industry so the combo of fuel, water and engines are his "thing." He is known internationally for his expertise on this matter and as a fellow prepper he would tell you E85 is crap.

On a side note, his Dynos and fuel farm would give you guys a major boner.

I'm not disagreeing with that, I agree that E85 is crap, I would never pay a dime for it.

But you must remember that this discussion is taking place in the Survival forum, not the break room. Given a survival situation, if you must get somewhere and you're faced with walking or driving your vehicle powered by E85, 95% of the time your vehicle is going to get you there just fine on E85, just don't go WOT and keep in mind the limitations of using it. That was the point I was trying to make. Do I recommend filling up your gas vehicle with E85? No. Can I say that you will never damage your vehicle? No. Do I think that you'll most likely be just fine using E85 in a pinch? Heck yes, you've got nothing to lose.

 

[Zoub]

And to think, on a firearm website we can learn so much about fuel systems!!!

And more importantly why 87 octane is a no-no.

And knowing the difference between winter and summer fuel.


In as far as this really is about self reliance, the last issue is probably the most important to undertsand when you store fuel, especially in a place like Indiana where we get a wide temp range during the course of a year.

Chain saw boiling in your hands, winter fuel in summer.

Very hard to start, summer fuel in winter.

E85, not in my program. Gas, Diesel, Kero & Propane, yes.

 

[Zoub]

But you must remember that this discussion is taking place in the Survival forum, not the break room. Given a survival situation, if you must get somewhere and you're faced with walking or driving your vehicle powered by E85, 95% of the time your vehicle is going to get you there just fine

And 95% of the time you will never find E85.

My comment is 100% survival driven, day to day life, non issue except for damage it does to engines. SHTF of any kind 1 to 30 days, I don't need E85 in my life.

Then again I have a "fuel pump in a can" I carry moded after the fan in a can, Longbow knows what I am talking about. Mine is based on a marine fuel pump and is safe for use in that situation.

It is what it is, for me, planning with E85 is not going to happen. Too many people have tested it and don't like it.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

If I had a choice (and right now I don't) I'd get some sort of diesel engine. They won't run on gasoline very well, but I knew a guy who used to fill his tank up with jet-fuel discards (when you work for a company with 27 helicopters, there's a lot of fuel samples discarded every day) and it worked very well for him. Of course, he was a modification-junkie and he had a dual-filtration system installed on his truck that I didn't see again in use for 20 years...and then it was on a bus. Another good thing about diesel, once you get it going, you don't have to worry about an electrical system shutting it down - if SHTF.

Contrary to popular belief, jet fuel is just that. Fuel. To put it simply, jet fuel IS diesel fuel, just the REALLY clean pure stuff. I've even heard of people using plain old #1 diesel to run their turbines. Most diesel engines will run on just about anything(to a point). For example, every time I change my oil, I dump all 13 gallons of it into my tank, add 100 gallons of fuel and let'er burn. I know guys who do the same thing with fryer grease, just filter it right into the tank and add fuel......I save a lot of money this way, at $3+ a gallon, there's a $40 discount every time I drain the crank case, which actually totals even more due to getting more energy out of the oil than I would from plain fuel......My father also has an old bull dozer that will run on gas or fuel, it has 2 complete fuel/exhaust systems that you can switch between and when it is in "diesel" mode, again, anything that burns can be run through it just like some of the old military deuce and a halfs.